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And on the Nope team we’ve got Kball…
And Chris, a.k.a. b0neskull.
We are recording on Halloween, so this will be a spooky episode, even though you won’t hear it until the week after… So Happy Halloween to everybody out there, and let’s dive right into it.
Well, hold on, hold on… Because I’ve just had a realization. Somehow this never hit me on our previous debates, but YepNope - our mascot should be the Yip Yips. [laughter]
I have no idea what you’re talking about…
Yeah… Way over my head.
It’s like the Muppets. They go “Yip-yip-yip-yip-yip…”
They go “Yip. Yip-yip-yip-yip…” and then they ask them some questions and they’re like “Nope. Nope-nope-nope-nope…”
There’s also a character that goes “Me-me-me-me!”, right?
I’ll have to google that.
[The Yip Yips sample]
I will find a link to that.
And then they try to mimic different sounds, like the telephone…
[00:04:03.21] Yes, it’s kind of amazing, and I am absolutely shocked that y’all are not familiar.
It’s been a while since I’ve watched the Muppets.
Me too. I mean, I like the Muppets as much as the next guy…
“I like the Muppets…” [laughs]
I haven’t watched Muppets, but that clip is hilarious…
I just wanna compliment Kball on his uncanny ability to completely derail the show before it even starts… [laughter]
Totally. So what were we talking about? Whether we should have the Muppet Party, or… Yeah, no…
You’re on the Nope team, Kball… [laughs]
Oh, my bad.
I love that. That’s great.
That’s all I have to contribute as the moderator. [laughter]
Great, then I don’t have to make a limerick. I didn’t.
Yeah, not fair. You stole my argument. [laughter]
But Feross – was it Feross who broke it down? I forget who it was. It was my entire limerick… Or maybe it was Adam… Totally tore it apart.
Oh, it was Mikeal.
Mikeal, yes! He tore it apart. It’s fine.
Sure, I can take it away. I will begin. It’s four minutes, right? I should time myself…
Yes, four minutes.
Very good, with five seconds to spare. Alright… Chris, your rebuttal.
[laughs] Yes, yes!
I mean, recruiters are always gonna be confused. But if you wanna confuse people, try renaming the most widely-used language in the world. Have you ever tried changing the name of a widely-used piece of code? Now try it again without Find and Replace. Try it again in over one million public packages, downloaded over a billion times a day into who knows how many private applications and packages. This is not gonna reduce confusion, folks. This is gonna ramp confusion up to 11.
The article argues that just like you don’t really know what PHP stands for, eventually people will forget what JS stood for, but it’ll still be this name of a language that matches the file extension that we all use right now, potentially until MJS or something else comes along.
DotTS, yes. I wasn’t gonna go there, but thank you… Now we can go into that. [laughter]
Sorry… Dang it!
Well, let me just say, I like the idea, because we will not have to rename our podcast.
That is true.
So I’m pro. I’m pro JS, for sure. It also happens to share my initials.
I like it less now. [laughter]
Yeah, so now it would be the language named for Jerod.
The funny thing is my kids do think that JS Party T-shirt that I wear is because of my initials, and they’re like “You have your own party, and a T-shirt about it?” I’m like, “That’s right…”
[laughs] I’ve never heard that.
[laughs] What?! No one says “JS.” They say “jk”, but “JS”…
What’s “JS”? I didn’t hear it.
Oh, I’ve never seen that in my life.
I don’t know if that’s a…
What’s Joint Service?
A military term referring to anything involving all services of the Armed Forces.
Namespace conflicts are gonna happen, no matter what name… You’re not gonna pick a unique name. Now, here’s a name that I thought was terrible - Go. Because there’s so many things named Go. That being said, they’ve solved the search problem by suffixing “lang” at the end, Golang. So you can search “Golang” to find Go-related things…
And that has never confused anyone.
It works just fine… And they have an awesome mascot in the gopher. This is another problem with the JS brand - we do not have an awesome mascot, because we can’t even get a name figured out, let alone an animal or some sort of creature.
Also, on the logo thing - it’s a pretty bland, simple logo. It just has a square and then it had JS in the bottom right corner… And I’ve actually seen that logo be used at a recruiting firm that had acronyms JS, and they used that as their logo. They were a technical recruiting firm, and I was like “How do you – you can’t do that…” I mean, I don’t think it’s trademarked, that logo… But it’s annoying, because now you can’t have cute interpretations of it. I mean, you can… I’ve seen – like, Singapore JS uses the Singapore lion mascot instead of the J in the bottom, in the yellow box. There are ways to do it, but it’s pretty plain. I feel like the gopher logo has cuter versions of it.
Also, frameworks… Ember has a really cute little – I don’t even know what that thing is. It’s like the Ember squirrel, or something. A chipmunk… I don’t know.
I don’t know what it is.
What would you come up with as a logo?
Or a mascot.
A cup of coffee, like with Java… [laughter] And then a paper next to it, like a script…
Yeah, but that was like CoffeeScript, isn’t it? Wasn’t CoffeeScript a cup of coffee, and then in the foam it had the logo, or whatever…?
No, that’s Java.
Looking around for things, animals starting with J, and possibly S… What about a Jumping Spider?
Oh, God… [laughs]
What about a rhino?
Yes, actually the spider would be great!
Alright, I’m switching to team Nope. We should not rebrand… [laughter]
Wait, but the spider would be great, because it’s like the web…
Yes! I love that.
Alright, I’m getting on board with this.
What about server-side JS though, or IoT?
And Assembly was created for mainframes. The world has moved on.
That’s true, for sure.
And hence we need a new name, to encapsulate them all. [laughter]
Yeah, and that is exactly what the article comes to - ServerJS and WebJS. So you’d have WebJS 2020 referring to ES 2020.
Good point, Nick. Yep, let’s do it.
And to your point about technical articles going out of date - technical articles by nature expire within a couple of months. They’re not valid, because the standards move forward, and it’s just the nature of it. [laughter]
Okay, what about the books then?
Well, books are the same. Books are the exact same thing.
If you write a technical book, that book is probably not gonna be up to date the moment it’s published. 100%. I have not written a book; I know a lot of people who have, and they put a lot of work into writing it. Not to discount that work, but the complaint generally is that from the time of writing it to go through the publication process, by the time it’s published and out into the world, lots of things have changed and they need to make updates, which is why Manning created the early release version; as you’re writing the book, you can release it, so people get to see the content as you’re writing it, so it’s always up to standard, and then you can always make updates as it goes. But that’s generally the nature of writing technical content - you’re never always gonna be on point, unless you write in a specific programming language that doesn’t change, for example.
I think you’ve just made the argument for the resurgence of Perl. I don’t think that’s changed since I was born, and it had the perfect naming because it’s a cute name, it’s misspelled, so it’s not to be confused with pearls… And yeah, I’m pro Perl Party.
Also, DuckDuckGo is written in Perl. Fun fact… I don’t actually know why. I assume it was because all the regex stuff that they have to do. I don’t know…
Speaking of bad names, DuckDuckGo - terrible name.
You can’t say it, like “Hey, do you DuckDuckGo that?” It just doesn’t roll off the tongue.
DDG is a little better, but still…
Perl is wonderful for write-only code. [laughs] You have to work really hard to do readable code in Perl. It’s not impossible… I know folks who’ve loved Perl, and do, a lot. Perl was one of the first languages I learned…
Have you written much ES2019 yet?
It’s ECMAScript, actually…
It’s all confusion.
You don’t know me…!
I know you! [laughter] The easiest way to get on Nick’s nerves is to just talk about TypeScript.
Amen! That’s my MO.
Maybe the question doesn’t make sense… [laughter]
Oh, perfect response. [laughter]
Is there anything else that we talk about that way?
Assembly was the one that I was thinking.
That wasn’t quite where I was going, but that’s a natural extension. I kind of like it.
If I write C and it compiles down to Assembly, I didn’t say I wrote Assembly.
Apparently… According to Divya.
And very hard to read, also… [laughs] [unintelligible 00:31:23.07]
I’m not going there, I’m not going there… [laughs]
Maybe we should take inspiration from another language - Java - and talk about the virtual machine we’re compiling to, right? Java has the JVM. Maybe we just need to start calling things “The JS VM.”
That being said, going back to my conversation on Monday - it’s strange, it’s unfortunate, with so many people coming into this industry, that we’re 25 years removed from this mistake and we’re still paying for the sins of our fathers, and we’re still having to explain away the confusion all these years later.
You’re trying to piss off everybody today, aren’t you, Divya? [laughter]
It’s just, you know–
TypeScript, Elm, and TC39…
Whatever… [laughter] I’m just gonna continue down this road…
I wonder how much of that is people are just bored stiff of the concept of standards and committees… We’ve tried to shine a light there a little bit, we’ve tried to connect, we’ve had episodes on connecting with folks and talking about TC39, and when we ask community members “What was your least favorite episode?”, they’re like “Oh, that standards one, man… That one was terrible. It’s not interesting to talk about standards…”
I think Chris is just scared we might call it Mocha, and then you’d have to have Mocha-Mocha.
Chris has a dog in this hunt.
Yeah. I think there’s actually a trademark now, so you can’t use it. Sorry…
Oh, really? Who owns the trademark for Mocha?
That would be the OpenJS Foundation.
Oh, really?! What?!
Nice. So you’re protected.
Chris got out ahead of you.
That would be fun, because then the OpenJS Foundation would have to rename again, right?
That would be fun. [laughs] The Open Mocha Foundation.
You have to get with the times.
There’s a reason why Coca-Cola is still called Coca-Cola.
Because it’s a strong brand, without confusion.
Oh, without confusion… How much of the Midwest calls everything that’s a soda a Coke? [laughter]
That’s a strong brand.
I don’t know about that…
People are actually extending it beyond what it even goes to. Like Kleenex. That’s a strong brand.
The cool kids.
Then we don’t have to rename, and yet not confusion. It’s a PartyScript. Hm? Hm? Hm?
Oh, that’s nice.
Okay, you win.
Yeah, but then we’d have the RAMStack, and I don’t know that that’s–
I know, but I’m just saying, everything that has a J in it is gonna need to swap then to an R… And there’s gonna be some interesting acronym-breaking.
When we look at the majority of the population, it doesn’t use the same letter system anyway. I don’t think that should be a concern. If the majority of people are using iconography because they’re actually speaking in Mandarin, or they’re using – I don’t know what the script is called, but for Hindu, or other things… Like, really? Should we be worried about the nuances of how a particular letter in our lettering system works? Probably not.
Well, what else would we talk about then? [laughter]
It’s a very Western-centric view, actually… Kidding.
We need a new technical committee to discuss it.
That’s what we need. One more name to add to the pile. One more protocol.
Maybe we should just boil everything down to a logo, or an icon, and then you can’t even say it.
Oh, yes! Yeah, Prince did try that, and no one understood. I mean, yeah…
Well, that is a perfect way to end this podcast formally known as JS Party… [laughter]
Is this gonna be our last episode?
Well, I think that the article that we referenced by [unintelligible 00:42:28.01] has the correct answer, which is “It’s just JS, folks. It’s just JS.” Keep it simple, keep the extension… Boom.
You could just say “Juss.” Jusss… [laughter]
It’d be like Yes, but Jusss…
Jusss! Just say Juss!
That’s our official response. Nick? [laughter]
I’d like a goat. [laughter]
The Greatest of All Time.
Plus, we know – yeah, it would fit well into Gulp.
Also very unhealthy for you…
Plus we know software developers love soft drinks…
No, you can, because you have too much of it, and then your site is bloated, so… Clearly…
Since I love coffee, and it wouldn’t cause any more confusion at all, I’d love it to be like a French press coffeemaker, or something like that… But really where I’m gonna have to land is the jumping spider, because I think the fun of spiders and the web, and the fact there are land-based spiders that could be our Node spiders, and there are web-based spiders that could be our web stuff… It’s a flexible idea. And plus, who doesn’t love spiders all over their code…?
And it’ll take debugging to its true form. [laughs]
That’s wonderful. There’s so many layers of this. Your spider is working on debugging the ecosystem.
Yes, let’s associate our brand with one of the most despised creatures on all of Earth… [laughter]
So now you wanna rebrand spiders…
Recuperate spiders, yeah.
I think it should be a goose. That’s where I’ll leave it. Thank you, that was wonderful… [laughter]
“That’s where I’ll leave it…” [laughs]
Like Untitled Goose Game goose?
Like Untitled Goose Game, because it’s…
Yeah, I could get behind that…
…it’s adorable, yet annoying, and so much fun to play with. [laughter]
Somehow Nick wins the day. Goose it is, folks…
He’s just trying to goose up listens…
Uuh… I love that.
And… Kball killed the podcast. [laughter]
Chris mic-dropped me. [laughter]
That “What?!” Oh, my God…
I just want to save that soundbite, of Chris saying “What?!” And then in future episodes just intersperse it in the podcast. [laughs]
That is a soundboard moment, for sure. “What?!” [laughter]
One hundred percent… One hundred percent. And you could just do that as a cut.
You could put something in before it. Somebody says somebody, and then you go “What?!”
Our transcripts are open source on GitHub. Improvements are welcome. 💚