Wine Web and a whole lot of Whatnot

Alright, welcome to Wine, Web and Whatnot, which is formerly known as a Whiskey Web and Whatnot, but cannot do whiskey at this conference venue at this time. So we have some wine… Chuck is trying to get it open. He’s doing a fine job.

Can you even see me?

I can see you a little bit. You maybe should scooch this way a bit. We’re kind of kind of cut off, but the camera can see us. I don’t know what the real – maybe it’s because I have this… Yeah. We’re all on there.

Oh, yeah. Nice. It’s a good shot.

What was I saying? Yeah, we have a special guest with us you may recognize from another podcast… I think it’s called Shop Talk Show? Is that correct? [laughs]

No comment… How do I get out of here?

No, seriously. Yeah, do you guys want to introduce yourselves and tell the folks a little bit about what you do?

I am the sommelier of the show, opening this wine.

Yes.

That voice you just heard is Adam Stacoviak. My name is Jerod Santo. We are co-hosts of the Changelog podcast, and we are open books that you can read with your ears, by speaking to us… [laughter]

Oh, that should be your tagline. [unintelligible 00:05:52.10] speak and read with your ears.

It’s got a nice ring to it.

How many devs does it take?

Are you guys OK over there?

I think they broke the cork. It’s broken.

Alright, so our wine today is full of cork, but it is a Italian wine… I believe a Chianti Classico Riserva, from somewhere…Where’s it from, Chuck?

We are not drinking that.

Yeah. Today’s episode is sponsored by corkscrews. Need one? We do.

And basic education. [laughter]

I’ve got it.

Yeah, we’ll get it. We’ll get there.

Good, good, good.

Once you get it threaded alright –

Is this how this show normally goes?

Well, it’s a little more loosey goosey for right now, but…

Wait, wait… Tell me you’re an avid listener. Right? Of course. Yeah…

I heard you guys when you were on my show, JS Party. I definitely listened to that one. That was good. You guys were awesome.

I still think we should have won that…

I don’t remember, but I’m pretty sure –

It was the screen size one, about like –

Chuck ruined it, didn’t he?

What are the common screen sizes people use?

That was a that was a really bad question… [laughter] It turns out it was yet to say ranges, because…

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know…

It was a fun time, though.

That was fun. These guys are like having their own conversation over there…

You guys know we’re recording right now, right? Can we…?

You guys were talking over us, so we just went ahead and had a conversation.

We were having like the show.

No side chit-chat.

Well, this episode is brought to you by drinks.com. If you’re a wino on the road, that is such a good *bleep*. And they owe me a bunch of money now.

Drinks.com.

It’s a travel pourer that is like a pliable disk that you just kind of roll up and put it in your wine, and…

I thought roll up was for like bundling JavaScript. Is that not it?

Not anymore… [laughter]

I’m just going to pass them down.

[00:07:53.14] So when you think about drinks.com… D-R-I-N-K-S. That is a six-letter domain. That was probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. It made me think of X.com, which probably cost in the millions.

a billion.

But am I the only one that thinks that that’s too short? It’s lopsided. The X is just one letter, and then the .com is actually more substantial… I just feel like you shouldn’t go less than three.

Yeah. It has to be something you can search for.

So that’s my hot take.

If you go “X”.

I know…

Well, maybe that works. I haven’t tried to search X.

If you were to find their X account, fine. If you want to find their double X account, also okay. But you stop right there.

Good legs on this wine.

Yeah. So we’re having the Chianti Classico Reserva. It is D.O.C.G., which means organic, but that is good in Italy, and terrible in the States. So just a heads up there. It’s the 2018, so it’s got some age to it… And there you go. Get to it. A little sniff… How is it on the nose?

Well, it’s better in the mouth.

Okay, well, you start there. That’s what she said.

It’s that kind of show?

Oh, yeah. Say whatever you want. Unedited.

Say whatever you want.

Uncancellable, by the way. Dot com.

You can sue me for zero.

Can I say things I don’t want?

Sure.

This wine… No, just kidding. [laughter] Not bad… Yeah.

Sharp.

Drinkable.

Serviceable. That’s how I’d describe it. Serviceable. I’m not a big Chianti guy… I am Italian, though. So that’s kind of backwards. But…

What Italian wine do you like?

Oh, no, I mean, I’m Italian genetically. I’m not Italian –

Yeah, but that means you have to like some Italian things, right? Now you’re gonna tell me you don’t like pizza, right?

Oh, I love pizza. I had some pizza last night. It was spectacular. How much does this wine cost? Is that – we can say whatever you want, right

Yeah, we can say whatever we want. I don’t know… What is this? Like 30-ish?

Okay.

[unintelligible 00:09:52.01] zero, but not super-fancy…

Do you get wine for zero?

No, no. But I mean, you can get a five or a ten-dollar bottle…

If you guys get big enough, you can get free whiskey at least…

Yes. We would hope.

[unintelligible 00:10:03.25]

There you go. There’s your North Star.

We’re way off track here. We’re off track.

Reel it in.

So we’re having alcohol… We’ve introduced the alcohol… We’ve tasted it, but we haven’t talked about it. What are the notes you’re getting, Mr. Charles William Carpenter?

Thank you. Okay, there we go. It’s very dry, which is what I don’t like about Chianti a lot of times… I don’t mind a full body, which this does have, but its finish just makes me feel like I need to chug a cup of water.

I thought it was Italian.

Italiano. Anyway…

That was a Finnish joke. Sorry, Chuck.

Yeah. I’m glad we’re doing your podcast next… Maybe not, because man, *bleep*.

Unlike yours, you can’t say whatever you want on our show.

Yes. We will bleep you.

I apologize, I interrupted you, but… It was a good joke.

It’s pertinent. No, it’s all good. So very fruity in the start, very dry in the finish, not a whole lot in between for me… It’s alright. I mean, I’m sure it’s a nice Chianti. I, like you, Jerod, though, don’t prefer them… So we have a highly technical rating here on the show. You guys may have forgotten from the last episode you listened to… Zero to eight tentacles, zero being terrible, obviously, four middle of the road, would have again, but not amazing; eight - clear the shelves, this is for me. You can categorize however you want with that. You can say to other wines, or alcohol in general… It doesn’t matter. Like I said, not too crazy there. For me, this - I don’t love Chianti’s. This is probably a little better than like your standard table Chianti, though… So I’m going to give it a five. Yeah. We can go down the line if you like.

I’ll go next.

Yes. I would say that the Chianti – I almost said Cunti… [laughter] Which is so close to the other version that – can we say that on this show?

[00:12:03.21] Well, I mean, it is [unintelligible 00:12:04.02] How is it on the *bleep* scale for you? [laughter]

I would say, on the Chianti side – I am not a Chianti kind of guy. I’m more of a red blend, a very simple wine drinker… I like blends a lot. I like Texas blends a lot. I like California blends a lot, I like a Malbec. ..That’s my style. It goes well with steak, it goes well with… Solo, by itself… It’s generally not very expensive… So I would say because of the reasons I don’t really care for Chianti - this is dry - I would say it’s low on my list. I would never buy this again, or drink it.

Will you finish this cup? Is it good enough to finish –

Yeah, I’ll drink it with you.

Yeah, we’ve got to crush this bottle…

I’ll drink it with you, but I’m not excited to go out and get a bottle of this very fine [unintelligible 00:12:56.01] Chianti Classico Riserva. 2018. Thank you for sharing it, but it’s not my favorite.

Well, it’s the first time I’ve had it too, so… You know, you take a roll of the dice when you go to the [unintelligible 00:13:14.12] Wegmans in Raleigh.

Did you give it tentacles?

Oh. Two tentacles. Two point five.

He didn’t spit it out, so there’s that.

Yeah. I will echo Chuck in his analysis, and I will subtract one point. I’ll give it four tentacles, but for the exact same reasons.

Yeah, that’s fair. The fan, the actual fan… Where are you?

He’s a fan?

[laughs] No, he bought this.

No, here’s the thing –

He likes Chianti. He chose this one.

I like Chianti. I don’t like the Classico Riserva. That’s supposed to be fancier. I like the normal Chianti. So I got one that was supposed to be fancier, to have better stuff. But yeah, it’s not my favorite either… I would give it more than a two. I think four is pretty appropriate.

Yeah. Maybe four and a half.

Oh, you can do halves?

Yeah, you absolutely can. Does that change anything for you?

I stand by my four. [laughter]

Where did you – did you say four also?

Yeah. Four seems reasonable.

Can I interject maybe another rule into your grading system?

Sure.

How much would you pay for it? Not what you’ve paid for it, but how much would you pay for it?

See, that’s the problem too, because in in Italy this would be 10, 15 euro.

Oh, easily. Wine is way cheaper.

And so it’s double or more here. So the pricing is all inflated. But I think 10 or 15 euro is pretty good for that.

Fifteen bucks.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you disagree with that assessment?

Well, he said he would never buy it, so… Or drink it. [laughter]

What would you pay?

Ten bucks.

Yeah. And that wouldn’t be crazy in Italy. Jerod, what part of Italy is your family from?

Sicily.

The boot.

Oh, way down. Alright…

The island. And don’t piss you off, because you’ve got people.

That’s right.

I’ve seen The Godfather, I know how it is…

Do not cross me, okay? I will make you an offer you cannot refuse.

Because you’ll be dead. So here we are…

Actually, it’s growing on me. Now that I’m sipping it a bit…

Yeah, alcohol will do that.

It’s smoothing out.

Wait till [unintelligible 00:15:23.28]

If you get past that dry part, it’s smoothing out.

Yeah. And it’s airing it out a little bit.

It’s gotten a bit more tart in the center for me… It was like sweet at first, like jammy sweet, and then it starts to get a little more like sour in the middle for me. Anyway…

That’s deep.

We are drinking it out of the best glassware for this… So that helps.

This is [unintelligible 00:15:43.01] finest?

Glassware is a stretch, isn’t it?

Yeah, I was just kidding.

Well, they’re not red. I was just like “We can’t get red cups.” I was like “Come on. We’re classier than that. We’re better than that. We deserve that.” Yeah, there’s a podcast over there, too. There’s a number of them… Here at All Things Open.

[00:16:02.07] This is podcast alley.

Yeah. Some here, some down there, some up there…

It’s awesome.

It’s kind of fun. So that takes me into what I think some of the things I thought it would be good for us to [unintelligible 00:16:11.18]

Okay, let’s get into it. Some whatnot.

Let’s do it.

We’re all creating content online, doing kind of our thing in various areas, some more successfully than others… I don’t think it’s limited to podcasting, because you have plenty of folks who do like live streaming, there’s a lot of learning content out there, there are short form things… Do you think - and I’m going to ask this question of both of you, so you can each take an answer at it - that inherently within development for the betterment of your career, figuring out how to create content, is that necessary to really stand out and gain a career within web development as a whole? Or… I’ll leave that open-ended, the second part.

Right. Good question. I don’t think so. I think for a certain class of people, it makes a lot of sense. I think it can certainly accelerate a career. There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands of very, very successful software developers who do not do any content at all. And I think they would raise their hand and say “Not necessary, guys. I’m doing it without doing that.” However, it’s a great avenue.

Yeah.

I agree. [laughter] Nah. I think it depends on what the person is optimizing for. If they’re trying to get to be like a famous developer, or notoriety, then I think yeah, you probably want to create some content. I think you’re probably going to put yourself out there, you’re going to be flashy, you’re going to do things, you’re going to be provocative, potentially, in your own way… And I think if you want to be that kind of well-known developer, that kind of successful developer, then I think you’re probably going to create some content.

But if you want to be a developer who is behind the scenes, necessary, maybe even coglike, potentially, then I think that you don’t need to worry about any content. You can just show up and do your thing, and be a useful cog, and be a great team member, and deliver great software, and care about customers, and that’s all you’ve got to do.

So… Related, what do you think about open source? Is doing open source stuff helpful at all to a career? …other than learning the skill. Like, for the notoriety standpoint, is it helpful?

I certainly think it is. Obviously, you can have more or less success with open source. And yet, it’s a great way to be able to point at something that you’ve done, or built, which is not proprietary, or needs permission from your previous employer… So there’s a lot of advantages, even just in that. And of course, there’s opportunity to raise your clout in the community by having a successful project or participating in one. So I think it absolutely is.

Where I thought you were going to go with that - maybe you’re headed there - is that content creation. Hm. Is open source creating content? Because –

Kind of.

…kind of it is, but it’s also kind of not. So I don’t know. Open question.

It kind of is. I think it’s content.

Code. Code is content.

The question is, is being involved in or shipping open source or contributing – what was the question again, Robbie?

What was the question?

It’s too far back there.

Yeah, is open source, not from learning the skill perspective, but just like from my GitHub screen, and like I’m trying to build my brand - is doing open source really helpful for that?

[00:19:46.04] I think it goes back to my original answer with the other one - if you’re trying to be more out there and more of a well-known person, famous or infamous, then I think having a flashy GitHub profile, that shows off the things you care about, is going to be very helpful. Whether it’s for making friends, whether it’s making new network connections that lead to job opportunities, or a co-founder, or whatever it might be, then yeah. But if you want to be a developer who’s behind the scenes, not necessary. I mean, you may have a profile, but you may not care if it’s fleshed out in terms of, “Hey, this is Adam Stacoviak and what he cares about.”

Go look at my GitHub profile. It’s basically abandoned. I mean, I don’t do a lot of open source besides our own contributions, and that’s limited. I did do a lot of stuff in open source, but I’ve not done a lot in terms of code contributions.

Yeah. I guess maybe I’m not asking the question in the exact right way here. So I have done a lot of open source stuff. I don’t think it has helped my brand at all. When I try to go get a job at a company, they’re not like “Oh cool, I’ve seen you online. Let’s hire you. You’re still the same interviews as everyone else.”

Right. Okay, and I think all of this is kind of under the umbrella of building reputation. They are all different ways to potentially build a reputation. And then like you said, Adam, it’s kind of optimizing for what kind of outcomes within that reputation you want. Like, I can come here and drink whiskey and talk s**t, and that might gain me some popularity. But no one’s gonna know what I can do for them professionally unless they’re hiring me to do that thing.

So you’re building reputation in multiple avenues, and open source is another one of those potential things… But, you know, you’ve got to optimize for the outcome that you want. Although, I will say that if you want to be a cog in the wheel, collect the paycheck that you’re given and stay quietly tucked in the corner, you can do that. But your options are limited, because the scope of the reputation you’re building is within now your current company.

So then that comes to be – remember they used to try to force a lot of web developers to have portfolios? And it’s like “What am I showing you with a portfolio necessarily?” That’s just like “I could read a book and do the project in it and push that out.” That doesn’t necessarily show that same thing, but it’s all about reputation, and figuring out how for us as developers, how do we like showcase that without going through six loops and a whiteboard? What does that look like?

Because an architect doesn’t have to prove themselves in an interview. They have a reputation because they went through the schooling, and maybe built these three buildings. So I think I would almost take these initial questions back one step and it’s like “What ways do you think are necessary as folks who do want to just like “I want to supercharge my career, and I’m really good at this thing I’m doing”, how do I build reputation for that?” And a lot of people are doing learning content to show it, sometimes they show up to podcasts… But what else is it for us to like prove we’re good enough, or get people to know us in a way that they want to work with us?

Great question. I think reputation in a lot of ways is in the eye of the beholder. And so to tie it back to what Robbie said, we’ve talked with hundreds of open source developers over the years… And for every person who feels the way that you do, like it hasn’t meaningfully moved the needle for you - like, your reputation based on your open source has not preceded you into those situations - there’s somebody else who we’ve heard the stories over and over again, they can either directly or indirectly tie their current career, their current status to their open source project. So it’s not a guarantee, but it does work. It is a way to gain reputation if you’re successful at using it in that way.

How best to gain reputation I think is completely subjective and contextual, and I don’t know if I can give a blanket answer. But Adam might be able to. How do you do it, Adam? [laughter] Tell us.

[00:24:07.02] I never heard of him until today, so I don’t think he’s doing a good job.

Right. Have you seen his GitHub? [laughter]

His Bitbucket, though, is on fire.

Sourceforge.

Gain reputation… I think you show up and you do what you said you could do, and you do it well, and you rinse and repeat, and that gets you reputation. I think that also there’s a publicness to this world we’re living in. In one way, shape, or form, there’s a socialness and a transparency that’s required to show off who you are, and what you’re capable of doing.

I think your analogy of the architect not being scrutinized - I’m paraphrasing, but at the same time, that person contributed in some way, shape, or form to several buildings, using your example. So those buildings are their portfolio. In some way, shape, or form, you’ve got to show off what you say you’re able to do, and prove you can do that, enough so to gain the trust, to get the opportunity, and then deliver it. And reputation is formed by doing that again and again and again, until you are popular enough that you have a reputation to precede you.

Break: [00:25:30.25]

Do you think our industry would benefit from like a national organization of certification, rather than the subjectivity from company to company then? For lack of a better term, say there’s a national union of web developers, or developers; programmers, whatever you want to call it. And the standards aren’t just determined by Amazon and their processes. And Oracle, and their things, and so on and so forth. Like independent organizations. Do you think a centralized one would be a way to kind of solve that? Because I’ve proven it in the way we all agree.

Possibly. Hesitantly, possibly. Very hesitantly though, however. One of the things about our industry is it’s so young. And while there are common similarities between different kinds of software, it’s changing still at a very rapid pace. It’s very difficult to certify and to stay certified in a way that’s productive around something that moves that quickly. I don’t see it slowing down anytime soon. I know there are efforts to come out with certifications… Those are all good. A national certification that we all agree to? I don’t know. I get skeptical of those kind of efforts, personally. But…

Yeah. It’s not very capitalist, I can say that.

No…

I think what I like about our industry is that it’s one of the few where you can just show up and do, and be good at it, and get a job. If you could produce a good outcome, you’re hired. Whereas –

I disagree.

[laughs] Are you currently looking?

No, no. But –

How do you disagree?

Interviewing is a completely separate skill from being a developer, in my opinion. And I am trash at interviewing, but I think I’m a pretty good developer. [laughs]

Okay. What I mean though - so his question is not about the interview, it is about the certification that says “I’m good enough.” And so I like the fact that I don’t have to go out necessarily and get a computer science degree that says “That’s the gate, and therefore I have the pass, and so I get through the gate.”

So that’s where I’m coming from, is that if you can produce, if you can do, if you can learn, if you can learn by doing, and show up and do it, you have access.

That’s true.

It’s not controlled by certification, or degree or this or that. It’s literally you’re curious enough in this young industry we have, to show up and be curious and find a path and forge that path, make a network, and do, and you’re in, for the most part. There is no true gatekeeper aside from opportunity, and doing the job.

But the interview process does suck. So we’re not going to disagree on that.

Yeah. From like a working agreements perspective of like you’ve shown you can do this job, not the interview aspect or everything else, I completely agree with Adam there, is that that is a benefit of it. I’m not like kept out by the equivalent of law school, or residency for medical people, and all the [unintelligible 00:33:20.23]

Or renewals. Renewals of certifications. You have to repass the bar exam, or be current on X to be Y. We don’t have that necessarily. There’s some parts of our industry that may have versions of that, but by and large, for the most part, if you can be a software engineer or a developer or a producer or whatever you want to frame that person as, you can do the job, and you get the job. And you get paid well, for the most part.

Yeah. And you also can use these tools to launch a business for a pretty low cost. I mean, it’s got to be one of the cheapest small businesses that you could potentially…

Yeah. It’s software.

Yeah, it’s software, and anybody potentially can do that. And I agree with that, in the sense that the gatekeepers in comparison to the lawyer, doctor and all that other stuff - now, obviously, we’re not saving lives, so… No humans are harmed by this, so of course we don’t need those kind of gates per se. So it’s a great counterpoint, I think, to that thing. But yeah, like Robbie and Jerod alluded to, or just straight up said…

[00:34:24.27] Now, the interviews, which are separate from all of that altogether, and where there are books and certifications to learn how to interview at Google, or some *bleep* like that… And I say that because we have – the badges.

The lanyard.

Yeah, the lanyard. That’s the fancy word. So that is something else altogether, which is a little bit ridiculous. You can almost just separate them. I have to learn to interview to get past, and then I can just do my job well. Yeah. The interview is nothing like the job.

What happened to the days of the guy in the hoodie who sits in the corner, eating Funyuns, chugging Mountain Dew, but he’s *bleep* crushing it… But he’s not leveling up his team around him. They’ve kind of been shifted out of the industry, in a lot of ways.

Lone wolf is really looked down upon.

Yeah, yeah. Like, that’s an interesting thing to me, because - to what you said, those are people who know it, and can get the job done, but I don’t want to go get a beer with them, so f them.

Well, the job isn’t merely writing the code, which is what the lone wolf thinks it is… And so there’s more to the job than many of us want there to be.

Sure.

And because many of us are socially awkward and not skilled in that area, we’d rather talk to computers than talk to humans. I understand that sentiment. I’ve felt that way. Even right now, currently, I might be feeling that way… [laughter] But that’s not anymore – maybe it once was, because you had one engineer in your entire business, or one sysadmin who just ran the entire network. That’s just not the reality of the job anymore, and so that’s why I think those people are marginalized, is because - yeah, they aren’t fitting the entire bill. But agree that the interview process just doesn’t actually interview you for the job that you’re going to do, which can be maddening… Especially when it’s difficult, like right now; it’s not easy to get that job. When it was easier - yeah, you had to go through some rigmarole and some LeetCode and some other crap, but then you got the job at the end of it, so it’s kind of like “Okay.”

Yeah, the LeetCode is some bull***t.

Now it’s like eight rounds in and they’re like “Thanks, we’ve chosen other candidates.”

Exactly. So it’s harder right now.

Or fake jobs.

That’s a thing, yeah. Fake jobs are a thing.

Tell me more about fake jobs.

It’s not Steve Jobs’ brother…

Okay. “Hi, my name’s Steve. This is my brother, Fake.” [laughter]

On a recent episode of Changelog & Friends with Johnny Boursiquot, panelist on GoTime, he shared his insights to fake jobs… And I think paraphrasing versions of what he said was, essentially, there’s companies out there that act as if they’re hiring, because it helps them with their bottom line in terms of investors, it looks good, so they have these jobs out there that are not being filled. They may even have headhunters out there collecting resumes, and “keeping” these resumes and these people warm, but still looking for the perfect ideal candidate. Meanwhile, they’ve got 15 possible really good candidates that they’re not hiring. So that totally sucks.

Which is a side effect of VCs using hiring as a health metric. So VCs began using that, which kind of makes some sense, right? Like, “Well, if they’re hiring, they must be growing.” So VCs are looking for a way to judge, and then, however… Whose law is this? Goodhart, perhaps?

Goodhart, yeah.

This is the one where any measure that becomes known ceases to be a good measure. And so companies realize “Well, we’re going to look better to VCs if we’re hiring. And so we can’t actually hire, or maybe we have one position, but we’ll put out eight, and we’ll just be very picky.” And meanwhile, all of us are out there applying like plebs, and their jobs aren’t even real.

[00:38:20.25] Yeah, that’s annoying.

Wasting our time.

Yeah, three months later you get a “We’ve reviewed your resume and decided you’re not a good fit for this one.” And really, they probably didn’t.

Why would you get anything back? That’s more than you usually get… [laughs]

That’s actually kind of kind. [laughter]

“Oh, thanks for letting me know. can cross this one off my list.”

Right.

And then you get into the position where you’re like “We should regulate this then.” Just like your certification question. We should regulate this. We should make sure these jobs are real before they can post a job. That is not a world I want to live in either. Like, over-regulation is not conducive to a free-moving market, right?

Yeah.

So the alternative is just to suck it up, I guess… Or like just call foul heavily when we find out true examples of fake jobs; not Steve Jobs.

Fake though, Fake was a genius. So call them out like say publicly you discovered this? Like “F LinkedIn. They’ve got eight job postings, and I know someone on the inside, it turns out they’re all lies. Don’t bother applying there” in that kind of way? Like shaming there, because they care about image and perception?

I don’t want to be a cancel culture pile-on kind of guy… But I feel like if it’s egregious, and it’s like maybe even multiple offenses… We wouldn’t do it. I would say Jerod would probably just walk away and just be like “Whatever.” I think somebody I’ve seen do this semi-well and respectfully is Gergely Orosz. He’s called out several companies for various hiring practices, various things… Even the whole WP Engine/WordPress situation, and Mullenweg. And I think he does a pretty fair job of holding people to a line.

Yeah.

It’s not my demeanor. I don’t think it’s Jerod’s demeanor. We’ve had a couple of examples in our lives when we’ve been marginalized by a very large company, who we would say we were part of the community. We were told we’re not welcomed, and we didn’t say anything. We just walked away. We turned to the cheek.

Until now… [laughter]

Listen, our three or four listeners would love to know right now.

Shout-out to George, Paul and Fake. Those are like your three listeners, right?

Yeah. Fake Jobs is a big fan. He’s worked on Pair AI, I think…

Yeah. It’s just a fork of Steve. [laughter] Anyway, yeah, nerdfights and fork culture is a very interesting thing lately, too.

It is, it is.

You bring up WP Engine, and all that – but I’m sorry, if you were going to go with…

Well, I just don’t want to be for the cancel culture necessarily. I don’t think it’s necessarily helpful to at nauseam just cancel something… Or ad nauseam, not at nauseam. I know in your brain, Jerod, you were like “It’s ad nauseam, Adam.”

We’ve worked together long enough. I just let it go. I’m like “Oh, he’ll stop. He’ll catch himself. He’ll make it a big talking point”, which just happened. Ad nauseam…

Ad nauseam… I don’t necessarily subscribe to cancel culture. I don’t want to be canceled, I don’t want to cancel somebody, I believe in forgiveness. I think people make mistakes.

Yeah, I agree with that.

And I want to see redemption, because I’m a believer, a firm believer in redemption.

Well, I think there’s a big difference between cancer culture of individuals –

Cancer? That was a Freudian slip, cancer culture.

Did I say cancer?

You did.

Yeah, I just – you know. Okay.

I like it. Cancer culture.

Cancer is culture. [unintelligible 00:41:56.17]

Is there more of this 2.5 wine?

No, just – whatever. Roll with it. You’ll be fine.

“Is there more of this…?” Yeah. He really likes it. [unintelligible 00:42:05.10]

[00:42:15.22] Jerod does not like this one, by the way.

I’ll give you that [unintelligible 00:42:15.21]

So we’re talking about cancer – cancel. Now you’ve put it in there. Cancel culture…

Just take one breath real quick and then start again.

…for individuals versus companies is my thought there. And it’s like, as a company, collectively making these moves and not just one individual that gets canceled, I think there’s a lot more leeway for individuals who do so. Who are just humans, have a feeling, a lack of understanding, make a mistake in the moment, become emotional…

Companies, especially the larger the company gets, they are – they’re planning this. Either an HR is planning… Somebody has made a plan and a group agreement to [unintelligible 00:43:10.26] decided “This is okay.” There’s some C levels that know about this, or some HR people that know about this. There’s people who know, and are making that conscious choice. So I tend to be more forgiving of the individual and mistakes in that way, unless you’re like some people who just lean hard… “Oh, I made a mistake. I’m going to keep going.” You know.

Who do you know like that?

I’m not friends with them, but –

Are you gonna name and shame?

I mean, you mentioned the WP Engine WordPress drama. That is a lean hard and keep going. “I am right fighting my position, and I will not listen to the masses. And if you are canceling me, I have a large bank account. I don’t give a s**t.” Maybe. I don’t know. I haven’t talked to him. I have no idea. He does seem to think that he is right.

He does.

And he’s driving that company forward, so that is a singular individual set of opinions. But if LinkedIn was putting up 50 job postings for a job they didn’t have, and I learned the truth of that, I may be like “F them.” You know?

Contextually, there’s a version of standing up and there’s a version of canceling. And I think in the case of like a Matt situation, I’m not subscribing to the idea – while I disagree with several of his moves, I’m not trying to cancel Matt.

No.

If LinkedIn knowingly allowed in some way, shape or form their platform to promote or allow for legitimately fake – is that even a thing? Legitimately fake jobs…

Real fake jobs.

Real fake jobs.

Dot com.

…then that’s not cool at all. And I say – I say call foul.

Yes, agreed.

But if you’re a small company and maybe you’re between rounds…

And you’re getting ready, and you want a pipeline for [unintelligible 00:45:05.22]

Well, it sounds like it’s mostly startups that are doing this, right?

Yeah. Because there are situations for founders and leaders that they get into some situations where they’ve got risk on the line. And I don’t think it’s necessarily okay to be like “Well, let me just promote this fake job, and tantalize Jerod for a while, and let him dangle.” But I can kind of, to some degree, empathize, because wow, leading is so hard. Running a company is so hard. Does it mean you should be disingenuous? No. But am I going to be personally as Adam from Changelog going to call them out? If it was on a podcast, yeah. [laughter]

“Only on a podcast would I do that.”

[00:45:48.25] Right. In the places where I’m known to share my opinions, I would share those opinions. Am I going to go out of my way to write a blog post about X, Y and Z doing X? No, because that’s not my medium. But if they were on a podcast with us, I’m like, “It sounds like that job’s fake. And I’ve got friends who applied.” Then I’d be like “That doesn’t sound legitimate. Is that real?” I would totally ask them that.

Yeah.

Am I going to be like cancel-culturing them and mobbing them? Nah. It’s just not my style.

Okay, so cancel culture, though, starts to become like a larger and larger blanket of where it’s coming from.

Yeah, it’s very mobbed.

Yeah. But the cancel culture is about changing perceptions within the culture of folks that feel like they’ve been marginalized, or worse.

A certain group of people feel like they shouldn’t be involved anymore. And so therefore, everyone should feel like they shouldn’t be involved anymore.

Yeah, and it’s like, no opinion is supporting the thing on – yeah, and all of that is a little egregious, in my opinion.

And you’re canceled if you don’t agree with the canceling.

But we talk about a startup, and it’s nice if you have a little sympathy for a startup CEO that, you know, has taken maybe a few million dollars or so, and they’ve made these decisions to try and like give them some last gasp efforts and perception of success, or just even plateauing and maintaining its status quo. I would say being a leader is hard. Being a leader with integrity is even harder then, because that to me shows a lack of integrity… And I wouldn’t even want to be there.

As I was saying – that’s why I was backpedaling. I don’t want to be a lack of integrity kind of person, but I can at least empathize with somebody who is struggling to hold the line. Because there is a phrase called “by any means necessary.”

That’s true.

And to some degree, by any means necessary is sometimes a bending or a curving of the integrity; not something I personally subscribe to, but I can at least empathize with somebody who feels compelled to do so to survive.

And the interesting aspect of that is you would see - like, that particular founder, if this story comes up 5, 10 years later, and they were unicorns, and blew up, and you would say, like you said, by all means necessary, and “Boy, was he really willing to just buckle down and do anything to make it work.” And they did. And that story is very different than the one of “Well, they ended up drowning anyway and f***ed over a bunch of people.”

This makes me think of a very good TV show.

Go ahead.

What is it?

Silicon Valley.

I thought you might say that, but I was like “It sounds like the obvious answer [unintelligible 00:48:23.14]

Richard Hendricks’ character struggled the entire show with integrity. There were times where he buckled his integrity…

What’s happening…? Hey, it’s Max.

Hey, Max.

We’re podcasting, Max.

Max, do you want a T-shirt? Have you ever heard of the show? No, I’m just kidding.

Did you guys have Max on yesterday, or…?

No, we didn’t. He ghosted us.

Oh…!

Yeah. Yes, yes. Good to see you. We are live right now. Do you want to say hi to the folks at home?

Put your face in the camera real quick. This is Max… Max Howell. Creator of Homebrew, and now t.xyz.

That’s right. Also, body double for Russell Crowe.

Oh.

Most people didn’t know that. Yeah. There’s some sort of familial connection there.

Are you not entertained? [laughter]

Yeah, if you want to hang out or come by in a little bit again… No worries.

Okay. So.

what were we saying?

Back to Silicon Valley…

We were canceling Silicon Valley.

Back to Richard Hendricks.

We canceled Silicon Valley? Come on. It’s got to come back.

Well, technically it was canceled. Or no, I guess it wasn’t.

This is what Adam’s referring to when he talks about cancel culture. It’s his show. They canceled it.

No, they ended it. It wasn’t canceled.

Yeah. It ended.

It was great.

Sorry, that was a dream of mine.

It’s not true. It’s just not true.

Just a dream.

[00:50:07.09] So Richard Hendricks struggled the entire time. It’s the entire story arc of the whole show, if you haven’t watched it before. And there were a couple of times he even referenced Abe Lincoln, and Habeas Corpus. A very particular episode where they were planting Pi-holes or something like that in the HooliCon conference so they can gain users. And that was a “by any means necessary” thing. And it’s wild. Like, you watch that show… So I mean, like, that stuff happens. I’m not sure if it happens that dramatically in the world. That was so cool. They ended up getting a lot of users, phones caught on fire and blew up… They ended up getting all these users… And then ultimately, other things happened which led to the story arc of Pied Piper. But you see that. You see these folks struggle with integrity. And I think that show is a great example of playing out someone who really desires to be towing that line of integrity. And you see him struggle. You see it in the character, and you ultimately see it in the story arc of the entire show and the product, Pied Piper, and the team. That’s an example of the struggle. I think it’s satire, obviously, but it’s very real as well.

I think it’s such a stretch from reality. I think it applies the most on like the extreme ends of the spectrum. Like, they’re a startup, they had to do some things to not be not in existence anymore. Then the other side of things, you’re like a huge FAANG company – or sorry, [unintelligible 00:51:41.24]

No, no. Stop. What’s this [unintelligible 00:51:50.17] thing?

Meta, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, NVIDIA… I don’t know, I’m probably not getting them all right.

Microsoft?

Yeah, Microsoft. Microsoft’s the first one.

Okay.

Because we think Microsoft should have always been included in the FAANG. But anyway.

They probably wanted in there, and they weren’t. They’re like “What’s wrong with these guys?” Alright, keep going.

What was I saying? Oh, yeah. So those big companies, they’re like – you’re in a board meeting, and they’re like “Okay, if we do this to f over everyone, we make 500 million dollars.” That’s a hard, like, “Yeah, no, we can’t. We’ve got to be nice.” I’ve never been in that level of a conversation, so I can’t speak to that.

Well, and they also never say it that way. Nobody ever says it like that.

No, “If we make this strategic pivot, it may harm the current environment for certain users. But we will gain these other users, and give them this tangential benefit, and profit. Do you need another yacht? I need another yacht.”

I could use my first yacht.

I think this is a good start, yeah.

I lost my yacht. It just – I went on shore, we ported, and I was like “*bleep*, where’s my yacht?” So I just like bought another one. I was like “Forget it. Just forget it.”

Yeah. You’re like “I don’t know. That one ran out of gas.”

Just forget it.

Every time you buy a new one, the tank’s full.

The captain and all. Bye. Got a whole new captain. [laughter]

So integrity, and certifications, and… It’s funny - individuals… We were speaking first about individuals building reputation, versus a company reputation. And we don’t actually have the same moral agreements from the humans to the group of humans who are a company though, I will say that. Because the morality kind of strips away the more growth and success you get, because you’re perceived differently. You did what you had to do to get there. Now, if you fall down and go burning, they’re like “Oh yeah, f that guy. He was a jerk.” But if it goes the other direction, it often feels perceived the other way.

Yeah.

So the ends do justify the means.

Yeah. I mean, to a degree…

I think it depends.

Yeah. You’ve seen that show Succession, right?

No.

That’s not based on any kind of morality, even within their – you haven’t seen it?

Can you tell us what it’s about?

[00:54:09.25] That is such a phenomenal, yet very, very disgusting show.

Absolutely.

Was it canceled?

No. It ended very well.

It was, actually.

It went on…

Maybe they wrapped it up, but it was canceled.

It wasn’t canceled… It ended.

Well, yes, they’ve wrapped it up. But I read that it was canceled. Maybe I’m wrong.

Maybe I’m canceled.

I think you’re canceled.

No way, man…

For saying that, HBO will never sponsor us.

Brian Cox is probably one of his best roles ever.

Yeah, it’s amazing.

Stellar acting all around. Gripping… And obscene richness.

Yeah. I mean, it’s an incredible showcase and statement about what actually f*** you rich is. And that family was f*** you rich.

They were so f*** you rich, they were f*** you rich against themselves.

Yeah, for real. That’s how rich.

I mean, there was no line that would not be crossed.

Yeah. Agreed. It’s a great show. So whether Robbie thinks it was canceled or not, great show.

Did they murder their father to take the throne?

No.

They tried.

They certainly –

They tried verses of murder.

Yeah.

Business murder, yes.

Because that goes back to Gladiator. He hugs his dad, the caesar… He just hugs him to death. You know that?

Yeah.

Joaquin Phoenix. Remember Gladiator?

Yeah, I remember.

Remember it? He realizes… So – I just watched this recently, that’s why I have it down pat.

We talked about this, yeah.

So Marcus Aurelius is old, he’s dying… He’s going to name Russell Crowe as the next caesar. Maximus, or whatever.

Maximus Aurelius.

Yeah, whatever his name is. Maximus. And Joaquin Phoenix, who is the heir to the throne, goes into his dad’s tent, and his dad tells him “You will not be Caesar.” And he’s like “Well, all I ever wanted to do is have you be proud of me, dad”, that kind of thing. And he’s like “My son…” and then they get close, and he hugs him, and he straight strangles him to death, and takes the throne. That’s succession right there.

That’s some succession.

Speaking of things that strangle you to death, how do you feel about TypeScript?

[laughs] Well, I stay as far away as I can… Just like Marcus Aurelius should have stayed away from his son.

Yeah. Always have a buddy.

That’s good. No, that’s good pivot into the [unintelligible 00:56:30.12]

Yeah, we’ve got a lot of whatnot.

A lot of whatnot.

Break: [00:56:37.11]

Who was upset about the state of frontend? I mean, basically just utterly disgusted with it.

Right… How basically –

Thoroughly.

To prove some point, all business logic and API, all of that stuff has come somehow into the frontend.

SQL in the frontend is great.

I can’t remember if it was Kent C. Dodds who was saying this, but – I don’t know, somebody was saying “We have a ton of folks who know React really well, subject matter experts. So rather than re-skill them across the stack, how about we just figure out a way to learn once, write everywhere?”

Yeah, no.

And I think that speaks to the state of frontend engineering.

It’s going to be a hard pass for me… I mean, I like Kent, but I don’t like that idea at all.

Yeah, I think there’s something to be said for – I want to learn how to do things, maybe not applied to frontend, backend, database, everything. But like for building a frontend; I should be able to write it the same way forever, and you just compile it to do whatever new s**t you want behind the scenes.

Yeah. I’ve got a real problem with that particular attitude, which is extent in our industry, which is like “I’m only going to learn one thing, okay? And YOU guys just work around my lack of knowledge for the rest of my career.” [laughter] How about no? That’s my stance. How about no? No, we’re not gonna do that.

No is an option. It’s not not on the list. You may check yes or no. Or maybe it depends.

Yeah. This one doesn’t even depend. I just think that’s a terrible idea.

It is a terrible idea.

It’s so myopic.

What about Rails?

What do you guys think?

Rails?

Yeah, what about Rails’ resurgence? [unintelligible 01:01:02.19]

No, we can’t. We can’t talk about two things.

We’re trumping your topic.

Please go ahead.

I was about to get a response to my –

Get a response.

Go ahead, get a response.

That’s a pretty hot take, wasn’t it?

No, no, I was going to say, I think there’s a line. I think some of it should work, but I think SQL in the frontend - not a good thing.

That’s the line? [laughter]

Just skip the ORM.

I think we don’t need half the s**t we have to begin with, because Astro is the best way to write apps. Use HTML, CSS and JavaScript. You don’t need React and all the s**t everywhere.

Agreed.

Just like, write with web standards, use good accessibility, do all the stuff, and then if you need some kind of more intense backend or database, use the technologies that already exist for that. Rails is great. Use MySQL or Postgres or whatever directly. You don’t need –

You don’t like ORMs? Is that what you’re saying?

It depends.

It depends.

I like the sugar of ORMs. I mean, Django and Rails had ORMs.

I like a good ORM.

Yeah, they’re true web frameworks, because they give you logging. If you don’t give me logging, don’t tell me Next.js is a full web framework. It’s not. I’ve got to have 45 other SaaS things that Triangle Company has invested in in order to make a full web framework in that context.

Talk about the dependencies of SaaS’es on a startup… You’ve got authentication, login, various things like that, that you have to subscribe to to deliver your application. It’s like, nah, man. C’mon.

Yeah, we’ve replaced opinionated frameworks that had all that, with a bunch of other services that you still don’t write yourself.

Which I think is why Rails is having a moment again. Because they’re “Hey, guys, remember this? This was better, before we went over here.”

It’s better!

It’s back. It’s better again.

Sorry.

I don’t know. I personally never left the old way, because I’m a stodgy curmudgeon… And so I’ve been waiting and just been doing it –

And here it is. You’re about to have your moment –

You described my stack right over there. You’re like HTML, CSS… I’m like “YEAH”.

First-class citizens.

Well, the sad part is we are almost 10 years deep into a platform that was not written in Rails, which I have remorse over, but Jerod does not.

But it has all the same ideals that Rails has. So it’s fine.

Yeah, I get it.

We use Elixir and Phoenix.

Okay. But that is also continuing to evolve and be great.

Totally.

That is like kind of timeless software.

I agree. Well, I picked it eight years ago, and I’m still happy with it, which - you can’t say that about too many things, right?

That’s true.

[01:03:52.22] That being said, Rails is cool, and if I was starting from fresh again – because I used to do Rails before that… And I would definitely pick it back up again. Because Ruby is a great language.

And DHH is nice now, and he’s making friends online… He convinced me to buy a framework laptop, so…

Oh, how is that?

It’s pretty dope. I just haven’t been able to spend enough time to make it my regular driver. But that and the Omakub is really cool.

Yeah, that does sound cool.

Yeah.

I like being able to upgrade it if I want… And even when my AppleCare wears out, I can get it fixed.

How much did that cost?

I ended up buying one on sale, so it was under a grand. Actually, you can get a nicely put together one for about a grand. $800 to $1,000, I’d say.

I’m about to get a new laptop, and I am so deeply in the Apple ecosystem that I’m afraid to like peek out and see… Because the cocoon is so warm and snuggly.

It is.

You’re not wrong. You’re absolutely not wrong.

Yeah. But I am curious.

You’re a little curious.

I am.

I think the workaround is you have like a rack mount Mac, that you can have like iMessage your Linux, so you can still message people, and shit.

That does sound like a workaround.

But I mean, it’s a funny thing, because you can buy a MacBook Air, and a Frame Linux laptop, and still spend less than you would on a MacBook Pro, like a real high-level one. So it’s crazy that that’s the case, but absolutely is.

Yeah.

So there’s that. I don’t know. DHH was able to make it run his Apple XDR display even, too.

No, he said it never worked.

It worked. No, he told me it worked. I just didn’t get the one level up that he did, that made that work. But it would be a $200 upgrade for me to do that if I was like “I’m in.” Then it’d make that work too. So… Hard to say, but I’d say it’s worth trying, especially at those price points. Anyway, this episode is brought to you by Framework Laptops. I’m just trying to find people I can bill.

Yeah.

This episode is sponsored by KC Masterpiece Barbecue Sauce.

Ooh…

I don’t know.

Is it legal to say you’re sponsored when you’re not sponsored?

We do it anyway. Is there rules to this? Holy s**t, man…

I think there’s an FCC regulation against that.

Do you have to lock – does the FCC cover things on the Apple podcasts, and things like that?

They won’t let me be. “They won’t let me be me, so let me see…”

That’s exactly what I was thinking. [laughter] I was like “Do I say it or do I not say it?”

You should have.

I’m like “They won’t get it.” But I underestimated you, Robbie. I underestimated you a lot.

Eminem. He’s the GOAT.

Yes.

Apparently.

He’s 51 now, so…

So that makes me feel old.

Yeah. Preaching to the choir here.

How do you guys normally end these shows?

We’re done. Bye.

Yeah. No, the –

Get out.

We do try to ask at the end “What would you guys do if you weren’t in tech?”

Oh, snap.

You don’t have to possess this skill. If you just think “This is cool, and I wish I could do it”, you can choose that, too.

I would probably be the emperor of the Roman Empire.

How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

Exactly. [laughter]

I just watched The Gladiator the other night.

Yeah. You’re like “That seems like a good job.”

It seemed pretty sweet. I like how you can just do this, or this, and everyone just does what you say.

Yeah.

That’s what my son does.

Daddy’s cooking.

What about you, Adam?

What would I do if I wasn’t in tech…? So many things. Am I retired?

You can be. Whatever you want. This is a scenario – I mean, Jerod was able to time-travel back to the Roman Empire.

Technically, I brought it to us… Technically, I brought it to the future. But that’s a nitpick.

Yeah, that’s fair.

[01:08:00.19] If I’m retired, I would probably get in the garden, I’d probably pickle my own pickles, I’d probably make guacamole every single day… I’d probably have my own avocado tree… I would probably have my own jalapeno tree, and a serrano tree, or plant… That’s how unschooled I am on this practice of gardening.

Well, you haven’t started.

I would first principles, not because I’m a weirdo, but because I really want to eat good food, and there’s something magical that happens when you eat really good food. And I’m not talking like pizza good food. But like fresh vegetables, fresh spices, make your own yogurt kind of situation, make your own sauces… There’s something that changes with your food whenever you’ve done that, and you kind of don’t want to eat out anymore. Unless it’s like your favorite restaurant, and you’re like “Nah, not today.” That’s kind of where we’re at. I make a phenomenal burger.

Alright. [unintelligible 01:09:07.08]

Phenomenal. The only thing stopping me from going layers and layers deeper is that I don’t have time to grind my own meat. I don’t got that.

But if you had time…

If I was not in tech and I was retired, I would be grinding my own meat, I would be – sirloin, with ribeye, and all the stuff. Make my own ground meat.

Cool, cool.

I’d make my own bun.

Yes.

Seriously.

That guy in L.A. on the burger show, who has the butcher shop – he’s like a chef, and he has his own butcher shop, and then he gets like a bakery out in town to do his potato rolls for his burgers. They’re amazing.

I’d fly my own plane to Columbia to get my beans myself… From Raoul, who’s a longtime friend, and I’m now a supporter of his farm. We have a co-op. We would shake hands, maybe kiss a cheek, and I’d come back with some fresh beans and I’d grind them that day, and I’d make some good coffee.

Nice.

That’s what I would do if I wasn’t in tech.

You could be my chef in the Roman Empire. [laughter]

I would direct the directors.

That’s fair.

And then - yeah, if you guys have anything you want to plug or mention that we didn’t get to.

I’d say we have a show coming out with DHH this week. So it’s Tuesday – it should come out tomorrow. It’s probably going to come out Thursday.

When’s this going to come out?

Not for a while. Two to four weeks.

It’s in the past…

You’ll have heard it already.

Yeah, it’s in the past. Look at our feed.

You probably already listened to it.

Changelog.fm, and look for something that says “It’s a Rails world.”

Nice.

It might not be called that.

It’ll probably say “Rails” or “DHH” somewhere.

We’re still working on it, yeah.

I think – I’m still down with that title. I don’t care.

Awesome.

Alright. Cool.

Thanks, guys.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Cheers, y’all.

Ciao.

Cheers…

Ciao!