Alex Moore: Now, just circling back to Google, one thing that we’re – because our organization’s fairly narrow scoped, so we don’t deal with advertising or search competition. We’re basically browser competition, fair and equal browser competition, and fair and equal web app competition in comparison with native apps. They’re really our two main goals.

[01:15:45.03] One of the problems on Android is that to install a web app properly, you have to use a process called WebAPK minting, which is currently exclusive to Chrome. And only Chrome can properly install a web app, to the point where it starts turning up in all the system menus, and you get security settings and stuff like that to turn off notifications etc. And we’ve already written a fairly large report saying that they need to be required to open that up to the other browser vendors. But it’s all worth circling back to none of this is remotely comparable to Apple’s behavior. It doesn’t mean it’s good, and both the practices of Google and Microsoft do need to get fixed, but the thing is, Apple’s the one that’s doing the most damage to browser competition overall.

Jerod Santo: Yeah, absolutely. So you still run into that stuff. Passkeys, however - you do not have to send a passkey to somebody every time they have to sign in, because it’s a pass and hold, right? You get the passkey, you hold the passkey, and as long as you have the passkey, you’re good to go. In fact, they are integrated, to a certain extent, inside of autofills on phones, whether you’re on Android or iOS, if you’re using the right first party passkey stuff… I’m not sure we’re gonna get into that, because this is where passkeys get weird. It’s like “Who’s got the passkey?” But as long as it’s in there… Like on iOS, for instance, if it’s stored inside your Apple Passwords app, it will autofill, or face ID, or touch ID, just like your password would. And so it’s instant once you have it there. But it’s also complicated. It’s more complicated than that, isn’t it, Dan?

Danny Thompson: There’s a couple things that I notice… These common denominators with groups. One of the biggest ones I feel is that meetups traditionally, they try to have the subject matter of the meetup be the core reason why someone is coming to that event. And so if they do another meetup and that subject matter doesn’t necessarily apply to that person, what ends up happening? They don’t go. For me, I feel like that’s the opposite of the approach that we should be utilizing and taking. The purpose should be “I’m going to where my community is.” Simple as that. My community’s meeting this Thursday, I’m gonna go hang out in my community. Oh, we’re also talking about a tech topic? That’s cool, too. And so for me, my meetups never start with us talking about a tech topic. That’s the thing that we’re doing together. It’s not the reason why I’m showing up. So I’ll do tech topics on Java, and I’ll have JavaScript developers show up. I’ll have a topic on Android development. I’ll have non-mobile developers show up because they feel like “Well, my community’s coming there.”

[00:12:00.06] The other day I gave a meetup with two days notice. We still had 70 people show up. Why? We’re not a tech town, but they know their community’s coming there. So they realize that a tech topic will be talked about, but they’re more so there for everyone else that they’re going to be interacting with. And so that’s the forefront of the message that I try to go with.

The other thing I’ll say is a lot of meetup organizers, whether they realize it or not, they’re really great at punishing their guests.

Alya Abbott: There’s nothing that we’re locking away from self-hosters. If you self-host - so we do offer paid plans for self-hosters.

You don’t have to sign up for one, but they’re an offer. And the kind of two major things that we’re providing with those paid plans - so one is mobile push notifications. So the way that App Store policies work, both on Android and iOS, is that if you have a mobile app, which our apps are also 100% open source, but you probably want to use the app that we put in the Play Store, or the App Store, rather than kind of rolling your own, which is a whole thing…

Jake Shirley: Super-hard sometimes, yeah. Versioning is – if I could underscore anything for past Jake to do, it’s take versioning more seriously. But yeah, I mean, even just things like updating the – and this seems big, but it should be mostly backwards-compatible… Updating the scripting engine. There’s some guarantees that we never really explicitly made around how Quick.js interprets JavaScript, and both ways that it does it, new and old, might be ECMAScript spec compliant. But people relying on just the wonkiest behavior of certain things… Parsing a number on Android, versus Switch, versus iOS had some platform bugs around one of them returning nan with a lowercase n instead of an uppercase N, or something like that. Just the craziest little things. And we try really hard not to break that stuff, but it’s… I mean, you have to draw a line somewhere around you either kind of freeze development, and get stuck in the past, or where you kind of hard-version, or… So there’s a bunch of different techniques that we try to employ around versioning. Some are cleaner and some are less clean, but it’s definitely a hot topic on our team. And not just our team, all of Minecraft, really, because we really try hard on Bedrock to provide that backwards-compatibility claim in all of our API areas… And so that’s – yeah, it’s a tough one sometimes.

Andreas Kling: But eventually - yeah, we totally want to get on iOS, Apple willing, and Android… And it looks like Apple is going to have to let us play on iOS, at least in Europe, thanks to the EU stepping in. I don’t know if America will ever get arbitrary browser support on iOS, but… It’s an interesting time. I will say that we do have the beginnings of an Android port, so we have a proof of concept where we can load a website on Android… But I don’t think we can scroll, so it’s a little bit limited. But we’ve seen it work.

Jerod Santo: [00:36:16.28] Let’s say you’re using the Expo on a Mac. Obviously, you have access to Xcode, and you want to run Android Simulator, or on Android stuff… What’s your process there? Do you have to get another device that has Android on it? Is there an Android simulator for Mac?

Daniel Whitenack: Maybe there’s the reason why my GPT 4.0 isn’t performing well, because I’m using it on Android. Anyway, one of the other things I wanted to mention, Chris - and this is kind of tied into some of this as well, where there continues to be an advance of these closed source models. I think if you look, there’s a chart that Hugging Face maintains about the sort of convergence of open models and the closed models, and the closed models are still ahead… And now, of course, GPT 4.0 is up there at the peak of it… But those lines are converging. So they’re not just running parallel, and closed models are all the way kind of ahead to infinity, but there’s a sort of crossover point… Which we’ll see if that actually happens, but that’s kind of, at least as far as those graphs, it looks to be what’s happening, which is interesting.

There was some news out of Hugging Face this week though that is good news for those that aren’t big foundation model builders and have big clusters of GPUs… So Hugging Face announced that they’re going to be sharing $10 million worth of GPU compute… And the article that I read said “to help beat the big AI companies.” So this is quite relevant to the discussion that we’re having now. In my understanding, they’re making these GPUs in a project called Zero GPU, they’re making this compute available within Hugging Face spaces, compute an application environment. And so yeah, for those of you out there, you might be sitting around and still wanting to innovate with open models, or try your own things and feel maybe not adequately resourced in terms of compute, and particularly GPUs… So really cool to see Hugging Face take this step and provide some of that GPU resources to the community that’s operating on Hugging Face. So yeah, check it out. If you just search for “Zero GPU” you can probably find out a little bit about that effort from Hugging Face.

Paul Orlando: You know, that is so funny, because – so I’m an Android user, and the only reason I’m an Android user is that 10 years ago I used to put Cyanogen, a custom mod on Android phones. [laughs] It was fun back then.

Jerod Santo: You could do all those inside of Pidgin. And I used it, and it was cool… And I couldn’t believe it was free software. This was one of the reasons why I fell in love with open source, because I was like “Who writes this for free…?” So Beeper reminds me of that. And that being said, I haven’t used Beeper, just because - I don’t know, I don’t mind having multiple apps. It’s a thing, but it’s not like a serious thorn in my side. I think if I was on Android, and I wanted the blue bubble – like, that’s what brought all the kids to the yard. It was like “Can I have blue bubbles on Android, please?” And when that got shut out by Apple, that’s when I think Beeper probably said “Okay, we need a sugar daddy to get us there.”

Paul Frazee: Yeah, all kinds of things like that. So you do want to coordinate it pretty tightly. So once you get into a rhythm, it’s manageable, for sure. But the X factor is if something gets through that’s a bug, you’re back through the process, the review process. So one of the value props of Expo, which is a toolkit that goes on top of React Native - and frankly, if anybody’s using React Native, I would strongly suggest that you use Expo. It’s been a huge help to us. One of the things they offer is what they call over the air updates. And what this idea is, is that - like, the entire React Native premise is that it’s running a bunch of JavaScript, that is then driving the various native applications. So it’s almost like a web app model. And so if you download new JavaScript to run inside of your application, you can change up how most of the applications go, so long as you’re not trying to change any of the natively-compiled components, which was the [unintelligible 00:43:18.01] Now, it’s a little unclear what the policy is between the app stores regarding this. Generally speaking, there’s been a lot of signals, certainly from Apple, that they don’t really want you to do that… But this is part of why it’s only now that we’re starting to get into it, where - again, I’m almost not even sure if it’s wise to be talking about it, because it’s kind of one of those things where they’ll let you get away with it if it’s not like significantly changing the application.

And I think a big part of what the review process is about is just making sure you’re not sneaking things in that cause problems… Which I can appreciate at some level. So you’re trying to balance these things, and we’ll see how it goes. But it’s just very difficult whenever you can’t push hot fixes… Because things do get missed in the QA. You mentioned the Back button; that’s one that we’re actually shipping out right now as a hotfix, because on Android we broke the Back button… Which you don’t want to do. That’s not great. [unintelligible 00:44:17.09] break the Back button. So now we’re getting that out. And if we had OTA, we can just ship that right away, same as like on the web, to defense.

Scott Chacon: [laughs] Yeah. But yeah, I had hat, and I had some screencasts and stuff that I had done for that… And a friend of mine who worked at Google, Shawn Pierce, had asked me to come into Google, and they were kind of switching over to Gerrit and Git for their Android team… And he had asked me if I’d come in and Google could pay me to do this tutorial type thing for their Android team. And I was like “Yeah, that sounds fun.”

[00:11:53.01] And then I decided that I would join the GitHub guys, and I was like “Can I bring this income in? I’ll just have Google Pay GitHub, and we’ll kind of have this educational arm of me going around and teaching… Like, I have a gig, and we’ll make it a GitHub thing.” And they were like “Yeah, if you’re coming in with Google as your first client, that’s fantastic. Yeah, we’ll let you do that.”

So actually one of the first things I did for GitHub is I went to Google and I helped teach Git to the Android team. And I ended up doing that a lot, actually. We did a lot of corporate stuff, where – and a lot of it, they weren’t even using GitHub. The Android team didn’t use GitHub. I don’t know, maybe they do now, but they didn’t at the time. I did Motorola, or Qualcomm, or… There’s all these sort of – Android was going out, and all these chip manufacturers and everybody needed to learn Git for Linux stuff, so that they could work on Android drivers, or whatever… And so GitHub actually made a relatively good amount of money of me traveling around and teaching all of these teams how to use Git… But also, I think it helped spread the brand, and things. And then I would do lots of conference talks, and all of that.

So, yeah, now I’m doing conference talks and stuff again, for Git Butler, like going on stage and talking about mostly Git… It’s kind of the same thing. I didn’t really talk about GitHub most of the time; I would just talk about Git and teach people Git, and then just assume they’ll kind of flow over into GitHub at some point, eventually. And it worked out really well for us, and so… But yeah, now I’m getting back on stage and kind of doing that type of thing, and teaching Git again, and… There’s a lot of stuff that’s changed in the last five years, so it’s been kind of fun to do these “You think you know Git” type talks… But yeah, the world has changed entirely. Now everybody’s grown up with it. It’s such a different world than being like “You know why you should use Git? It’s because it’s good at branching”, or something… [laughter] And everybody’s like – I don’t even know what to compare it to, right?

Jatin Ramanathan: That actually reminds me of maybe another spectrum… And that spectrum is consistency. So what I mean by that is, if you’re making a product like a spreadsheet, and there’s a lot of complex formulas and ways to calculate things, you’re likely reaching out to your users on multiple platforms, and so you want the stuff to work the same way on Android, on iOS and web. And so you kind of have to make that decision of do you want the same code running everywhere? Or do you want to target one of those platforms, and then the others can catch up in your business?

[00:48:00.10] And so Workspaces actually does run the same code everywhere. So there’s a lot of like technology that technology choice is there, but then imagine writing your web code using Kotlin, or something like that… Or any one of these cross-platform tools. So that’s kind of important to mention as well; you make that choice, like “Oh, I’m gonna be platform-native everywhere, so I’m just gonna make my app n times.” Or “I’m not doing that. I’m making my app once”, and I think Jess is pretty familiar with this area.

Ben Cohen: Exactly. So hackers hack, and then they get it going… They do a really amazing job. And then they have to deal with all sorts of struggles. In the case of Swift on Windows now all of a sudden we have to compile the compiler with Visual Studio, which is always fun, because C++ compilers don’t always agree… So they did that work, and then at that point, once it graduated, it became an official version of the language.

We have people who are working on Android, and they’re still in sort of the community bringing it up stage. We also have a community effort to implement WebAssembly as well.

Philipp Heckel: Are you on Android or iOS?

Marcin Kulik: I’d written a blog post about that on the asciinema blog, but it’s been – so one thing with this Python implementation is that it only uses things from Python’s standard library. And because this pseudoterminal PTY module is there, it’s stable, and it works on all platforms, even on Android, or some obscure systems… So it was kinda like packaging was kind of solved, because you just packaged like a py file and distribute it to systems which have this standard library, and it’s covered. So there was a problem with the Go implementation, that some low-level systems stuff needed to be implemented, or tweaked for every platform. And at the time, Go packaging was kind of in a weird state, in my opinion. I know that it’s better now, but it was different options of how you vendor libraries, or package things… And then the maintainers of asciinema, for different distributions, they had some troubles with it as well. And then in the end, I kinda of didn’t like Go. [laughter]

Dominik Klotz: Yeah, really on the visual part. For example, when you’re talking about Selenium, Selenium is only working with web interfaces, and you cannot use this, for example, on Android, and so on. What we are doing really is a screenshot of the system. So it means we can take a screenshot of the application, we can take a screenshot directly off the operating system, and then our AI model, what we trained can detect the user interfaces; that means we’re detecting buttons, we’re detecting text, we’re detecting text fields, we’re detecting checkboxes, we’re detecting icons… And so we have already trained a model which can understand the visual representations of a user interface. And then we connected our natural language part to it to match the intention, what you have. For example, click on the Login button [unintelligible 00:09:33.25] and then we are moving the mouse there. So this is a little bit different from the concept, versus I connect directly to the application, and then I try to scrape the source code off the application to get my information. Maybe this is the best way to differentiate.

Adam Stacoviak: Well, I want to layer on one for you with that… So Day One is a pretty well-known, well designed iOS, MacOS native application. I don’t think they’re on other platforms. I could be wrong. No, it actually says Android, iPad and Mac. So maybe they’re on Android. I think the journaling is a good thing. I was not excited about it, but it’s kind of cool that it might be native; just like freeform. I think for me, I kind of go to sleep anytime iPad’s mentioned, because I’m not an iPad user… And I see some of the things they’re doing there, and I’m like “That’s kind of cool”, but every time I see myself wanting to use an iPad, I think it might be consumption, but then I’m like “I’ve got this big phone, so I can just sacrifice some pixels for the experience.” I know Nick Nisi in the chat said that he primarily uses his iPad for consumption, and I’m just like, in every case, shape and form, if I was a digital artist, and I used the Apple pen, and I used specific things that the iPad enables for an artist, then I’d probably be excited about the iPad. But I’m not, so I’m not. So for me, anytime I hear iPad things, I just think – I just wish they would make a super-inexpensive internet device that my kids can use in the Apple ecosystem, that wasn’t 500+ dollars, or more. That’s just so much to shell out to a kid. And you do want to give them these fun things and stuff like that on trips; especially on trips, and we’re taking trips all the time. It’s like, gosh, when we’re driving, let’s give them something to do so they can – I’m not gonna buy them a Vision Pro, so…

Bryan McCann: It’s very likely that 10 years from now the way that people interact with the internet, and the information that is out there - they’re gonna find it hard to imagine how we did it without such strong language understanding at that point. Because language is this really natural interface for us, right? Like, you can talk about doing pretty much anything. So if something could be on the other side and be that other you out there, kind of doing those things a little bit for you, on your behalf, just the way you would - it’s probably something we can’t really conceive of yet; we can’t really wrap our minds around it. But getting there - you know, there’s traditional ways to do it. Like, we have mobile browser apps. And I think people understand how those work, like Chrome or Safari… We have like a You browser on iOS and on Android. I think desktop browsers are another natural one… But pretty much anywhere you might type in text could eventually become an interface for you to interact with these things. And if you can type text into it, you can also speak to it, and have speech-to-text take care of that for you, if you want to do that.

Any interface where you’re using language, or could use language to communicate with something, is an opportunity, I think, for the next generation of search, and chat, and do engines like You.com. That’s the forefront – you know, I have some sci-fi thoughts, paths we could go down… I don’t know about you guys, but I have like an inner voice. Like, I can hear what I’m thinking as text, more or less.

Liz Rice: So I spoke at a DockerCon back in 2017, and I was talking about how containers worked… And I saw a talk by Thomas Graf about the Cilium project. And it talks about how it was using eBPF to create this really cool container networking. I thought, “That is really cool! And yet, it’s so far into – like, nobody can possibly use this, because it needs this cutting-edge kernel at the time.” But I thought “That’s interesting tech. I’m gonna just keep an eye on that and see how that works.”

And then, a few years later, I was working for a security company, and somebody suggested using eBPF – they’d actually been doing a project outside of work using eBPF on Android for a sort of security-related project, and they’re like, “Could we use eBPF to build security tooling?” So we worked on that for a while.

[45:58] And in the meantime, I was seeing more and more of this eBPF community kind of building up, more and more people using eBPF in different projects… And Isovalent, which was the company that Thomas and Dan Wendlandt – Thomas who I’d seen speaking at DockerCon… They founded Isovalent around the Cilium project. And they were facilitating this eBPF community, and I realized that that was – if I wanted to really immerse myself in eBPF, that was the place to join. And that’s why I joined Isovalent.

And since I’ve been there, one of the things that really – I hadn’t appreciated before I was there was the extent to which Cilium and eBPF have actually been kind of developed in almost lockstep. So there are two maintainers of the eBPF subsystem in the kernel. One of them is Daniel Borkmann, who works for Isovalent, and the other is Alexei Starovoitov, who works for Meta. And yeah, they are the people who kind of drive eBPF’s future. And a lot of how eBPF has evolved, certainly on the networking side, has been in order to allow Cilium to build some cool networking feature, we need support in eBPF to enable that. Maybe different hooks into different parts in the networking stack, as an example.

So it was just fascinating to me to see just how much of that the development in eBPF had really been done to enable – I mean, to enable the platform as a whole, but particularly with this vision of how eBPF could improve networking and facilitate all these really efficient networking features. So for me, that was kind of why I was drawn to that team. The expertise is just beyond comparison, I think, and a really exciting place to be.

Daniel Thompson: We did have somebody trying to develop Tauri apps on Android, and kind of didn’t work that well. You can develop headless; there’s ways to test with xvfb on Linux, so you can kind of emulate a screen. But generally speaking, a keyboard, an IDE, and a development environment… A lot of people use VS Code, VSCodium… Take your pick, as long as you can edit some code. You might want to have Git installed. It’s not a requirement, but modern engineering is kind of moving toward that distributed collaboration. It’s what we use, but not a requirement.

[01:08:06.26] So, I mean, the easiest way to get started is probably for a lot of people - I would say the majority is going to be in the Node.js ecosystem, so pick your favorite framework and we probably have a starter kit for you. So you can run the Create Tauri app, which is a library that we built in Node.js, that scaffolds up your entire folder structure. So you get your – if you’re using React, or Svelte, or whatever, you’ve got all of those Node modules that you need to set it up, and you get a dev server that you then use to get your hot module reloading while you’re developing the app… And yeah, it’s pretty straightforward. We’ve tried pretty hard to get it to work for almost everybody. I think we’re at parity now between the three majors - macOS, Linux, and Windows.

And then you’re gonna want to build your app. And what we’ve found is bundling for all the platforms is complicated. And that has a lot to do with the way the compiler expects the architecture to work. And Rust - you can compile Rust for a number of different platforms, but where it always, always, always get sticky is compiling for macOS. Some people run a couple virtual machines. They maybe have a macOS as a main driver, and then they run a Linux in a Windows virtual machine, or they have a Linux as their main, and then they run a suite of virtual machines… And as a matter of fact, that’s kind of how the CI works. So the Tauri Action on GitHub, that you can really easily hook into your GitHub workflow, basically takes your Tauri configuration file, which tells it what kind of app you want to build (for Mac, for Windows, for Linux), what kind of API features you want to embed into the system, because you’re using them, or you don’t want to embed… The kind of CSP security policy that you want… There’s a lot of granular functionality inside of that configuration file, and it’s actually all the CI really needs at the end of the day to build out for those other platforms. And I think that’s kind of the skinny, the lowdown on what you need to consider when you want to build for multiple platforms.

Ron Evans: That was a really sad thing… You had this company Google that had Android, and that was the operating system that everybody was using. Not everybody, but lots and lots of people were using Android on all these devices, and it came from this company… Google. They used to exist back in those days…

Dan Shappir: Yeah, because it’s just a really thin wrapper on top of the web performance API that’s just basically built into the browser. And so you can actually – for example, you can get the LCP value for a user session. You can get the CLS value for a user session, or the FID value, or the FCPs. All these values, you can actually get them from the browser. And this is the quote-unquote “standard” way. It’s actually standard-compliant. Google are trying to make these metrics an official part of the DOM, and the APIs to get them.

[01:03:46.16] And by the way, I didn’t mention, I’m also an invited expert on the Web Performance Working Group for the W3C. So we actually talk about these APIs that Google is introducing. Some browser vendors adopt them, some unfortunately, don’t, or at least not yet. So for example, Safari have adopted the metric that exposes FCP, the First Contentful Paint, but they’ve not agreed to adopt the metric for the API to expose the LCP metric. So you cannot actually collect LCP from Safari sessions. It is what it is, but you can from Chrome sessions. So at least for some of your sessions, you’re able to get this metric. And now you have the Core Web Vitals values, not just from the lab, not just from running Lighthouse on your site, but from actual real user sessions. So you’ll know, “My median or my 75th percentile”, and I’m using 75th percentile because that’s what Google uses. They look at the 75th percentile - “…that’s the 75th percentile for my users on Android.” And then you can know what your situation looks like.

Feross Aboukhadijeh: Right now if you’re on Android and you install Wormhole as an app to your homescreen on Android, that means it’ll get added to the Share menu. So anywhere on Android, if you have a file, you can get a Wormhole link from it in a couple taps.

Paul Bakaus: On Android, on the Pixel phones it’s the -1 screen. But again, the Google app is another entry into it. Yeah, that’s Google Discover.

Jerod Santo: So before we continue down the technical road of what this all looks like, I wanna take you back to that conversation you had, because I think that was a pretty good analogy with regards to the streaming of games or that direction, and the streaming of the application, kind of its final state down the wire, versus making the client do a whole bunch of computing… And I wonder if there’s a fly in the ointment… Some of these things in the industry - you just don’t see them coming. I think back to the iPhone; prior to the iPhone, I remember John Siracusa was making these blog posts about how Apple had to replace Objective-C, like, yesterday. They needed a higher-level language in order to compete with other platforms.

Then the iPhone dropped, and the App Store dropped, and the iPhone’s computing power compared to desktops was just minuscule… And Objective-C, because of its low foundations and it’s manual memory management and all these things that make it not a very desirable high-level language actually gave Apple this advantage for a few years, where their phones and the apps on their phones could outperform a lot of the competitors, because they didn’t have GC and these other things that Java has on Android, for example. And that bought Apple probably five years before they had to come out with Swift… So that’s just an example of like “Well, nobody saw that–” or maybe Apple saw it coming, but those of us watching said “You really need to do this”, and it turned out something changed… They didn’t really have to do it for a while at least, and then Swift came. I’m not sure how many years later Swift came; at least five, maybe ten years later… And now they’re competing at that higher level.

Well, one thing that’s changed with regards to apps is privacy and security… And I think about this with regards to the client-server relationship. I think today we are less likely to trust the server than we are our own clients. We see pushes for offline apps, we see pushes for phone-only apps, where the database is only local; and these are things that people are trying to build. And we see the ad blockers, the tracker blocking - this whole movement towards privacy, because our privacy has been abused by people running servers for a while now; we’re waking up to it. It has perhaps pushed people away from the idea of like “Well, I’ll just stream everything down from this server that I can trust”, because I’m not sure I can trust that server. I just wanna know what your thoughts on that – maybe a fly in the ointment of the idea of as much server-side as possible.

Amal Hussein: Yeah. I have to echo – a couple shout-outs to some web APIs that I think have helped smooth the link communication in mobile apps… The Web Share API - I don’t know if y’all are familiar or remember it. It’s not that old. Essentially, it’s a way for you to share information, with anything, from your phone. So you can actually implement it, which is really nice. It works beautifully on Android and iOS. But I think for me the walled gardens, like the areas where you’re interacting with the web through a device that’s perhaps owned by a proprietary company, and the company has interests in you using their app store… I feel like the web has had a really tough battle, both with devices getting smaller and faster, and better to use, and the long arc of the web - how long it takes for things to get updated etc. Not all websites really caught up with it, so you don’t have this graceful, beautiful, out-of-the-box experience.

So there’s just so many uphill battles that I’ve seen for the web. We’re still very much in the thick of it, specifically also for new internet users, like folks coming online for the first time. There’s millions of people in Brazil and in India coming online for the first time every year, and they’re kind of learning about the internet through apps. And when I say apps, I mean native apps that come pre-installed on their low-end devices. And I can say the same thing about my younger siblings, that are much younger than me.

[12:17] So the web has a lot of catch-up to do, I would say, in certain areas… But obviously, if you take the accessibility of the web and you kind of supercharge it with the powers of native apps, that’s what you’re supposed to get with progressive web apps, and potentially projects like FUGU from Chrome.