Richard Moot: [01:19:40.12] Like, 100x. And that’s just thinking about how a regular person can now go enable this stuff. But that’s also not accounting for the very savvy developer who goes “Well, why spin up one agent when I could spin up 20 agents to go do work for me?” And so it’s just going to be this exploding problem. And so the thing I keep thinking about is “Can all of us handle the volume of a bunch of bots going around calling all these things?” Are we just going to see a huge influx of DDoS, and…? I mean, it’s hard to understand what the second order effects of this are when you have just tons and tons of agents being spun up everywhere.

Adam Stacoviak: Honestly, now that I’m thinking about it in real time… You know, you have a column whenever you’re on your admin and you’re on your machine’s dashboard, essentially… You can see last seen, or ones that are out of date. And unless you’re savvy, you probably haven’t enabled Tailscale’s ability to auto update. Maybe you have, maybe you haven’t. I forget which machines I’ve done it on. Like, every one I install again, once I knew that update was there, I do enable that. But sometimes I forget. So I might be like, “Okay, are there any of my machines that haven’t been seen in a while? Or are there any versions that are – give me a list of the ones that are out of date, that I should probably concern with around security” Because you’re probably not emailing me about my security concerns, but my tailnet knows which ones are too far out of date if I haven’t auto updated.

Adam Stacoviak: Well, as a Notion user, the things I want to do, or – I want to create a new document. Like, I want to be able to note-take. I want the note-taking app to be able to take notes, no matter if I’m connected or not. I mean that’s a very simplistic… Like, don’t give me anything else. As an individual user, I can understand trade-offs that, okay, I’m offline, I can’t see the full table, I can’t manipulate data in the cloud… I get that. And there may be some users out there who are less savvy - I don’t think that’s very savvy, honestly, but maybe less savvy than that - that don’t get that and they get upset. But I want to create a note, I want to be able to do things like that, but I get the challenge there. I mean there’s so much complexity that you could have in Notion with what it does… And I just don’t even envy the engineering task to even accomplish that mission they’ve got. But they need it. They need it in certain ways. That’s why I think, mostly, some of it, certain tasks could be local-first, or local-minded.

Adam Stacoviak: If I wrote this headline, I would write the same headline, but I would add parentheses to it… And I would add the words “For some.” Because when he says in the intro – let’s first praise it. Awesome. I think it is a great idea. But I still agree that it’s for some. And this is why. Because when he described self-hosting being easy in 2024, in the very first sentence Docker is mentioned. You go find somebody who cares about their privacy as a layperson, who is not really into tech. They use tech, they’re users of tech, they buy products. They’re generally not savvy with Docker. Does that mean they can’t use it? No, because then you can build another abstraction layer on top of that. And I think TrueNAS is a version of that kind of abstraction. But I was using TrueNAS recently, because I got this test unit from them that I’m testing out, which - I think it’s just amazing hardware, by the way. And amazing software. But at the same time, this is designed for a nerd. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just not designed for this headline, “The future is self-hosted.” Because I think it is, but I think for some. Because if I wanted to on my 10-gigabit network put my Raspberry Pi - which will not be 10-gigabit. I don’t even know if the R Pi 5 is 2.5… And host my own JavaScript files, like be my own single-node CDN… Like, is that gonna scale? I mean, I don’t know, because then you’ve got like this personal ISP. What is self-hosted? Can you get your own colo space at a data center?

Jerod Santo: That was a very savvy way of responding, I thought, given a he front-loaded front-loading on you.

Jerod Santo: There you go. Well, it’s funny, because – who was I speaking to years ago, that kind of changed my perspective a little bit on Google ads? …which - my perspective was skip the sponsored ones immediately. I do a Google search; I’m gonna skip right past the sponsored to the organic. Habitually, intuitively, easily. Give me the organic searches.

And somebody who was older and wiser than me, but maybe a little bit less technically savvy, but definitely more business savvy, was like “I go straight to the sponsored ones.” And I said, “Why?” And he goes “Because those people are serious about what they’re doing, and they want to reach me.” And I’m like “Well, that’s interesting.” So they’re legitimate, because they’ve got money to spend on this exact thing I’m looking for.

Jerod Santo: [00:48:13.24] The other thing I thought was pretty savvy, but they have been putting in asterisks at the bottom of the pages, and not up front with, is like “This Apple Intelligence stuff”, which is obviously the flagship thing that they’re here to talk about, is on iPhone 15 Pro and newer. Which is this year’s model. I mean, there’s nothing newer than that right now. Obviously, in the fall, when this stuff ships, there will be a 16, I assume; there’ll be a new phone that comes out. But this, in addition to pushing their chips into the pile of the AI game, they’re also like “We’re going to sell some new devices. We need a good reason to sell some new devices”, because they’re struggling to sell new devices, compared to the past at this point.

Kelsey Hightower: Honestly, the credit probably goes to everyone in your life. Your mom, your parents, your friends, your colleagues, all that stuff. I was 22, 23 when I finally realized - and it was from observing just where things were going at that time; so I’m 23 in 2000, 2003 maybe… And so I’m looking at the game, and I remember I bought this Suburban. Car nut, right? No kids, no family, nothing. Just me, 5’9”, and I have a seven-seater car. I ain’t taking no kids to soccer or practice… I don’t even own a home, so we ain’t going to Home Depot. “Why do you have this car?” And I had the car so you could see it, and be like “Damn, he drives a Suburban.” That was why I had the car, literally. Just being honest with myself.

[01:22:02.08] And then you look around and you’re buying all these clothes… Again, I don’t really even care about these clothes, but boy, do other people do. And I said “You know what? I made a decision. I’m living by myself. I’m managing the comedian.” I had this consultancy business, entrepreneur… I’m like “We’re doing this stuff, we’re ripping and running all the time.” But when you’re managing comedians, you see the high and the low. You’re seeing very famous comedians spend $40,000 at a club on alcohol and making money fly in the air. And then you watch MTV, or some behind the music thing, and they’ve got no money later. How do you make all that money, and then be broke? And not just broke. You owe the IRS a couple of million, so you negative. How does this happen? So you watch it in real time. And I’m like “Oh, this is how this happens.” And I was like “You know what? I’m getting rid of the truck.” And one of my buddies was like “What are you doing? What are you going to do?” I was like “I’ll just rent a car when I need one.” He’s like “Kelsey, how does this even work?” I was like “I think I got it figured out. First step is –” And I don’t know all the things. So there was one step of “I’m living in the South.” And you eat steak, potatoes, macaroni and cheese, all the sides, you eat the same diet all the time. There’s no big deviation when you grow up where you grow up. You eat what everyone else eats. So I was like “Ah, I’m going vegetarian.” “So what are you gonna eat?” “I don’t know, man. I’ve never eaten Indian food. Let me try some of that. I’ve never messed with Thai food like that. Let me try that. Afghani food. Let me try that. Ethiopian food. Let me try that.” So I was forced to expand, because I couldn’t go to the normal spots anymore, because they ain’t have nothing that fit that.

So now you’ve got this forcing function… Who am I, and why am I that way? So now I’m vegetarian, because I chose to be. And now I’m eating all this other stuff. And now I’m paying attention to what they sell. “Hey, do you have something that isn’t these things?” “We don’t.” So now I’ve gotta go somewhere new.

Now look, for me, that was the number one way to expand my horizon, for someone that’s in their early 20s. Then I looked at the debt and said “Why do I owe all these people money? It makes no sense. I’m out.” And I went to the dealership, and I was like “Hey, I’m going to turn in my cars.” Like, “You can’t do that.” I’m like “Yes, you can. Voluntary repossession. You have to take these keys back. Worst case you will sell the car and I will owe the difference. And I’m ready to pay that difference when it comes. So here’s the keys. Do what you’re going to do to the credit score. I am off the debt treadmill forever. I’m out.” And my friend’s like – and like “Hey, I need a ride home, because I ain’t got no car now.” [laughter]

And so I get a ride home, and I didn’t live too far from an enterprise car rental. And that’s when they used to come pick you up. So I went there, and I still have my consultancy, my computer shop thing… And so I would get the car, and do service calls with it. Right? How hard is this? And I was like “You know what? I need to be charging trip charges when I go out and do these IT installs.” So you build it all into the model. And then guess what, if you’re savvy, you rent the car on Friday. They closed on Sunday. They have these discounts over the weekend. So when you’re try to go out and do dates and all this stuff, you get the car on Friday, you turn it back on Monday, and you don’t lie. This is a rental car. I am debt-free. This is part of the whole debt-free thing. Anyone that can’t get down with that, I can’t afford to be with them anyway… The good lifestyle is not what I’m trying to be about. So then people see who you are.

So now I’m debt-free. So that’s like “Hey, everything gotta be debt-free. We’re making decisions different over here.” But then when you do get money, what do you do? Do you change up? No, you stay the same. Nah, no, no, no, we stay the same.

I used to date my wife in high school, but we reconnected years later. And I remember two things. Blood test, credit report. I was like “Oh, you’ve got debt. No, no, no, no… We can’t get married with no debt. Here’s how it’s gonna work. I make calls, pay things off, but you’ve got to pay me back. Because I’m not the boss of you. You’ve got to know how I feel, and you’ve got to earn it back with a little help. Now you’re debt-free.”

[01:26:07.17] Right before we got married – we set the date for marriage right when the debt was going to be paid back. Now she’s her own person. She has what I have - independence. She knows what it’s like to be debt-free, and she knows what it’s like to be in control. And I proposed with a cubic zirconia. “Why am I paying ten grand for a diamond? It makes no sense. I can pay $1 for cubic ciconia. We pocket the rest.” We got married in Bahamas. Not because it’s fancy, because AirTran - I don’t know if y’all remember AirTran, the airline…

Bryan Cantrill: I know, right? “We’re going to take the technical excellence of Sun, and we’re going to combine it with the business savvy of Oracle.” I mean, it was almost immediately after the acquisition that I realized just how stupid that was, and that Oracle doesn’t actually have business savvy in any true sense. Oracle understands coercion. That’s what Oracle understands. And the way that Oracle operates is they get the leverage to be able to coerce their customers, and then they lack the mirror neurons to stop themselves from just excruciating coercion.

I felt embarrassed to work for Oracle, which is not something – I felt ashamed. Not something that I would have anticipated. But one of the things that I really learned very quickly after the acquisition is despite Sun’s faults - and Sun had plenty of faults - Sun’s customers, our customers wanted Sun to succeed. And what I realized was like, despite our faults, our customers trusted us, because we were always transparent with them, like warts and all. Sun did try to pretend that it was something – I mean, again, every company has got faults, but for its size and history, and staying power, Sun had really surprisingly few… I mean, no one went to jail at Sun, there were not these major ethical transgressions… And Sun’s customers, by and large, wanted Sun to succeed, because they trusted the company. And that was not true with Oracle. When you get to Oracle – Oracle’s customers don’t trust Oracle. And Oracle’s customers are – I mean, when I was there in 2010, the state of California refused to purchase any more Oracle. The state I lived in, the government of the state I lived in refused to purchase the product, because they had outstanding lawsuits… I mean, that’s not what I want to do with my career.

[00:44:40.03] What I learned in that whole process is that the meaning of an endeavor is really important to me. There’s got to be a bigger why. Why are we doing this? And I have always believed that in computing there’s this line – I’m not a huge Halt and Catch Fire fan, but there is a line that I do love, which is… I’m a much bigger Silicon Valley fan than Halt and Catch Fire.

Annie Sexton: I’m actually curious to see, as we progress, as we see more early-career developers use things like Copilot, whether that’s for a net good or a net bad. I feel kind of mixed on this, because I know that when I’m in a codebase in a language that I’m not as savvy as JavaScript, such as like a Go project, or Python - I don’t know those languages as well, so having something like Copilot helped me out with a lot of the syntax is really helpful. And I do find that I’m learning, and eventually I don’t need Copilot to suggest things… And so I think it can be a good learning tool, but I also don’t know - you know, we’re reviewing applicants, and I can sometimes see when I think this has just been generated. First of all, it doesn’t work. That’s one thing.

Yoav Shoham: So my answer won’t be based on an observation, because the systems don’t exist yet. They’re baby solutions right now, but I don’t think they represent what we’ll see going forward. But in answering your question, it very much will be a mix. There will be companies such as ours that will put in the foundational infrastructure to run these complicated flows. These will have to be extensible systems, and they’ll be extensible in a variety of ways. Some of them absolutely you’ll be able to have programmers write the actual code and insert the code there… But there absolutely will be a role for low code or even no code specification of the flow you want on top of this framework. There will be a data scientist that will write validations of various kinds, and data pipelines, for sure…

And so I think everybody from the developer, to the data scientist, to the business user, who’s somewhat savvy, to the end user, who just wants a system that works, everybody will have a role in the interaction. And we haven’t mentioned DevOps yet. DevOps here is going to be very important also.

Jerod Santo: [unintelligible 01:02:28.21] savvy.

Jared Henderson: The red pill. I think you might kind of be a little bit shocked. And that’s where I think, if you kind of have this little bit of awakening and say “Okay, we’ve got to do something a little bit more intense than this.” Right now, what makes sense to me, just kind of at a fundamental level, is you’ve got to flip it; you’ve got to block the entire Internet, and then you’ve got to just Safelist the parts that you want your kids to have access to. And different parents are gonna have different appetites. I’m kind of on the strict side with my kids. It makes sense to me. I have so many thoughts about this… But I think if some people knew how strict I am with my kids and their internet usage, they might say “You’re a little bit crazy.” But I talked to them a ton about why we do this with them. I talked to them about stuff that I got into as a kid, I talked to them about what I keep myself out of as an adult. And it’s not just this kind of like comes from on high, of like “I’m gonna block you out of everything, because you’re a terrible person.” It’s in the context of a lot of dialogue, and relationship, and I kind of… I think they understand it, and they become sort of allies with me. And they’ll rush in and bring me their phone, or bring me their computer, and say “Hey, dad, I’ve found a – this isn’t working.” Or “I’ve found this thing. Can you block this for me?” And they’ve kind of internalized that this is an important thing to do. But I’m kind of on a tangent…

But yeah, the idea of safe-listing instead of blocklisting I think is huge… And when you look out there in the market for tools to do that, there’s just – very, very few tools do that. And I think it’s because it’s complex, it’s hard to do, it can be cumbersome for the parents, it requires some technical savvy that a lot of parents don’t have, and it’s just so much easier to kind of press the Easy button of “Block the bad stuff for me.”

That’s the experience I had… I knew I wanted to take this approach of blocking everything, and so I found what I thought was like the best thing on the market for Mac computers. That’s kind of what my kids were mostly – we’re like an Apple household. And I’m like “Okay, for Mac computers, how do I do this?” And there’s only a couple things out there that will even let you work in that mode. And I used one of them for a number of months, and just found it incredibly onerous, and difficult, and time-consuming. And like you were saying earlier about some of the ScreenTime stuff, like kind of buggy, and just weirdly stopped working… And as a programmer – I guess most parents, they would probably just be like “This is terrible” and they would probably turn it off. But as a programmer, you’re kind of like “That’s not how I would have done it. I would have built it like this. Why can’t this talk to an API? Why did they have to bring their computer over here onto my desk? Why do I have to type this domain in here? I would build this.”

[34:29] When you have to use a piece of software you really don’t like, you just kind of build up this wish list of “I wish I’d had this, and this, and this.” And one day I just kind of – we had one of these bugs, one of these failures where, luckily, my daughter came to us and said “Hey, this just stopped blocking the internet, and I can get to this, and this, and this.” That kind of just like pushed me over the edge and I said “I’ve got a little extra time.” Like, there’s always that naive feeling when you haven’t tackled a problem here, you’re always like “How hard could this be?” And I just thought “I’m gonna give this a shot.” And that’s kind of how I got deeper into this world than I was back then.

Jerod Santo: Welcome, friends. This is Frontend Feud, everyone’s favorite award-worthy game show, made by the award-winning JS Party Podcast that you’re listening to this very moment. I’m Jerod Santo, and I’d like to thank all 100 of our savvy, tasteful, good-looking audience members for taking the time to take the survey which makes this game possible.

After dethroning the Shop Talk guys last time we played, Una Kravets and Adam Argyle are back from the CSS Podcast, defending their title. Welcome to the show!

Chris Benson: I have a follow-up, which I’ll get to in a second… But just something that you said that was really resonating with me is I’m currently - though I’ve spent a lot of years in small companies - I’m currently in a large company, but just before we started this conversation, I was in a work meeting… It was with a development team, and I was thinking exactly that; I was literally saying, “We need to lighten this up. We’re too heavy-handed.” I think it’s one of those small-company things that could be used very well in many large companies, is don’t overdo it; light as well. So I just wanted to say, I really resonated with that when you were saying that.

You’ve done a really good job of talking about the need for trust, and finding those opportunities, and communicating… But as we move forward with data science in small organizations, and there are all these opportunities for growth of the small organization by really absorbing data science beyond just your role as the data scientist, but kind of affecting all of the other functions… As you build that baseline of trust, and you’re actively communicating that, how do you approach getting people who aren’t thinking about the benefits of data in a business context? So they’re not doing your job, they’re doing their job, but there’s so many ways that if you kind of get data-centric, in a non technical way, that you can get benefit from that… How do you bring people along on that journey? Because it’s a hard thing to do. It takes a very savvy touch to bring people to see something that’s not normally their forte (that’s your forte), but they can benefit tremendously? What are some of the ways of bringing all of those other people along in their own right?

Mat Ryer: So here’s Jack Sparrow reading filepath walk. [in Jack Sparrow voice] “Walk walks the file tree rooted at root, mate, calling walkFn for each file or directory in the tree, including root. All errors that arise visiting files and directories are filtered by walkFn. The files are walked in lexical order, mate, which makes the output deterministic, but it means that for very large directories Walk can be inefficient. Walk does not follow symbolic links. Savvy?”

Josh Goldberg: I came at you with a troll and you countered with a very savvy, insightful comment on the mechanisms of companies sponsoring open source that I strongly agree with… That it needs to be a community-run project to be called a community-run project. The joy and a lot of the benefit is that you have a large group of people contributing and coming to decisions by consensus, not from some dictation by a company sponsor. That’s really important.

Angelica Hill: Oh, we’ll sniff you out. We’re savvy individuals on this show.

Jen Looper: I am seeing a little bit of loosening in that requirement for the CS degree, thank goodness. I know at Microsoft we’re loosening that considerably, which is nice to see. I think geographic location is still a challenge for a lot of folks, and that’s just really unfortunate. So it’s interesting to see some bootcamps – with Frontend Foxes we’ve had two Africa cohorts and a LatAm cohort. So what we try to do is we have a local teacher to staff these… So we try to give opportunity worldwide.

But yeah, the bootcamp thing is really interesting. It’s been interesting to watch it evolve, because these predatory programs have kind of popped up, and they’ve actually hurt programs like ours… Because people will ask us, “So what’s the catch? It’s free, but what’s the catch?” But you have to be a little bit savvy and just kind of jump around and make sure…

Landing a mentor is really helpful, if you can find an industry mentor to kind of help bounce ideas off of, or give suggestions on your career path and maybe help steer you towards the right program for your learning style.

Jerod Santo: …get the more sponsorship, and the less savvy get the less sponsorships. So that’s a hard problem to solve, but maybe tools supporting the less storytelling-savvy developers to help them tell their story, and to help them show their value proposition or whatever it is.

I know that a lot of the struggle and the conversations I hear maintainers having around GitHub Sponsors is, “How do I present myself, what I do, the value I’m bringing?” And then the tiers is a big thing, because it’s flexible, which is great, but it’s flexible, which is terrible because– I mean, we had Caleb Porzio on the show who’s killing it with GitHub Sponsors. I’m sure you know. He made that famous post about “How I made 100k grand a year”. He’s probably doing double that now, who knows? But he had this brilliant idea about how he actually structures his tiers and how he tells that story not based on buying him two cups of coffee versus three, which is the way that lots of us go, but actually, who you are; like, if you’re a freelancer, if you’re a corporation, and this is what he requires. And that paid huge dividends for him. I’m sure there’s probably somewhere where the people talk and his best practice is, “Hey, go check out Caleb’s and copy that.” But help us understand, Jessica, are there ways of GitHub supporting the maintainers to tell their best story or the best version of themselves?

Jerod Santo: Yeah. So the interesting thing about this one is I’m not really savvy with these character encodings, and I’m not sure why it’s doing the HTML encoding versus the URL encoding, but my first question is, like, is this even a bug? Or is this just like the way it would work if you pass it an apostrophe?

And when I start to have these questions - you laid out a very clear path to potential victory, but I’m lazier than you, so my first thing is like, “Am I running the latest version?” That’s just what I ask myself. Like, maybe this was fixed between my version and now. So my first step is, “Well, let’s just upgrade stuff.” And I start to – even if it’s like a procrasticoding thing, I’m like, “I’m going to go check out my deps tree and see how old everything is.” A bunch of stuff was out of date, so this begins the yak shave. So instead of fixing that, I’m like “Here’s what I’m going to do - I’m going to update all of our deps.”

Juan Andrés Guerrero-Saade: No, because it’s like – you know, you’re talking about a different generation, and they’re not necessarily the most savvy, and it might be easier to kind of scam these folks, and a lot of that happens. But I think that the difference there is they tend to be very casual internet users. So at most, what you’re defending is a few passwords, and maybe some pictures of your family, and things that are emotionally impactful, but that aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things. Whereas software devs - like, sure, it might be easier to scam a software dev or social-engineer them, but if you do get on their box, they have SSH keys for all these different services, and they’ve got full privileges for this whole source code repo that an entire company relies on… So the impact tends to be drastically different.

Chris Benson: That’s a really good point, and that was a really good answer to how to address that. One of the things that I’m seeing also is organizations trying to figure out how to – kind of what we talked about in the very beginning a little bit, but how to address AI… Do they do it as a separate organization? Do they integrate it in with their data science, or their software teams? And that can vary based on the domain expertise they have, what their employees are, what kind of business they’re in, and also what technologies they’re focused on.

[28:03] I think early on I saw a lot of AI being broken out more and more as its own thing, and I think the people that drove that were very savvy on internal marketing and getting budget for that… And certainly, as we’ve seen it normalize over time a little bit, you’re starting to see it roll back into more of the data science and DevOps side of things as well, since it’s just another type… You know, divide up your model types into – you know, some happen to use GPUs and some don’t. That seems a very artificial thing.

Raul Jordan: That’s also an interesting question. Of course, there’s a lot of money at stake in the system, and basically, somebody could argue “Hey, what if somebody comes and threatens the developers to add a particular change that might be subtle, but could be very dangerous and risky.” The benefit of a system like Ethereum is that the development is sufficiently decentralized such that single points of failure are not as prominent. So if there were one developer, one maintainer and one implementation that everyone used, then it could be very easy for that person to change the rules. But even if that developer went malicious and went rogue and tried to introduce some malicious code into the repo - of course, users are savvy, people are savvy; everyone has a choice of the software they want to run if that’s the case on social consensus, which is basically fork the project and basically maintain it on its own.

Thankfully, we’re not the only people writing the code for this major upgrade to Ethereum. There are three other implementations in production today, and they have very capable teams that are working on this alongside ourselves. So I’d say the responsibility is definitely spread a lot more than if it was just Preston and I, for example, pushing a button that could basically affect everyone.

Evan Welbourne: Exactly. Those are always the super-valuable, early adopters that are pioneering these new technologies. But of course, we’ve got all kinds of other customers that are less savvy. Their interests may not be programming their home and wiring up all of these devices. It may be more about just keeping their family safe, who are like “I’ve heard about smart home, it’s kind of interesting. I’m not too confident about setting it up and using it, but it just seems pretty cool. I wanna give it a try.”

So that’s one of our key challenges, is trying to help customers through that journey, from getting their first light bulb, to being the kind of fully enrolled customer that has maybe multiple devices, and is taking advantage of some of these higher intelligence features. So that is one of the things that my team focuses on, is facilitating that journey with customers, helping them set up devices intelligently, and helping them recover from really common kinds of errors that they run into when they’re setting up and starting to learn how a smart home works.

Ro Gupta: I recently did a bit of a purge, a little bit of a cleanse, but it’ll get back to where I was… But yeah, some of the natural language directions, for example, that you’re seeing from Apple Maps - and I think others now as well - that’s a good example of like… It’s kind of giving us some super-human machine-like qualities that we didn’t use to have with normal master humans… So it’s like instead of just “The next turn is right-hand turn on this street”, and maybe even giving you the amount of meters away it is, it’s being a lot more precise and allowing you, the human, to almost feel a little bit more like a machine, to feel more automated by saying “No, [unintelligible 00:41:00.21] sharp turn at the McDonald’s…” You know, really starting to get more granular…

Let’s just sort of play that out… Let’s just say a package delivered today. That driver, whether they’re working for Amazon, or for any other company - they might be using a standard, off-the-shelf mapping/navigation app, or they might be something… You know, in certain cases, like Amazon, they’re savvy enough to actually have their own routing and navigation capabilities on top of general consumer maps. So even today, that driver would greatly benefit from being guided by their maps app precisely to the right part of the curb, that’s already pre-optimized for safety; making sure it’s not a dangerous part - especially if it’s a city, or something - to pull over. Proximity, obviously, to the doorstep, or wherever they have to go. The probability of it being vacant, whether you have statistical data or other data from, say, the city - you should be able to incorporate that.

There’s a lot of things that could make that delivery driver superhuman, as opposed to just letting him wing it, which is what we’ve done for a long time. That’s kind of what we’re talking about. If you compare that to the inputs that an autonomous delivery vehicle would need, in that [unintelligible 00:42:24.13] future it’s not that different. It’s all those things I’ve just mentioned, plus - yes, the robot is gonna want more vector information on the map, on where precisely to be able to pull into the curb space… And for the human you don’t really need that, because they can handle that just fine, doing the steering themselves. But that’s what we mean by that MD-fidelity layer, where humans are now being empowered to be superhuman and almost more like machines, and then machines are basically just being able to make more human-like decisions, and just smoother, slicker decisions that a really experienced, attentive human would make in terms of pulling over in that drop-off space for that curb… That’s an example. As I said, we’re seeing into that now, it’s pretty cool.